Outpost Universe Forums
Projects & Development => GORF => Hall of Fame => Topic started by: Brazilian Fan on October 25, 2006, 10:46:28 AM
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What about air units?
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we had the debate before. we don't want offensive air units.
http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=3149 (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=3149)
http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=2783 (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=2783)
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Air units are "god weapons" they can get way tooo high and bombard your base. You wouldn't like that. or your enemy if you do that to him.
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If any one has play Empire Earth. There is a point in the game where you can get nukes and air units. Well once some one has that what do you think happens. Thats right SPAM THE MOTHER f***ING NUKES. If there wasnt air units to deliver the nukes then they wouldnt be spammed like a crazy rabid noob.
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Aparently no one has heard of AA, such as Flak used in WW2, or GTA Missiles for today. Air units in most games unless its EE or EE2 are made to be quite vunerable to AA. Air units I feel would be a good idea as long as there is proper AA Units to counter them. Oh, and just a note, no, I haven't visisted the other topics because my time is limited and I need to go right now.
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I'm not sure if I like the idea of flying craft. It just doesn't feel right. I suppose it would depend on atmospherics. I suppose if I could build an airplane and it had a use, I would. Now you have to study the ramifications of building an airport.
Nukes are out in my opinion. Colony battle (as far as story is concerned) is about preventing the other side from stopping your progress. (Like a double negative.) Not about destroying everything.
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Good point White Claw. This is a battle for survival, and the fights between the colonies is only them trying to survive by stealing/setting back their opponent.
A couple of ideas of mine for non-offensive air units:
* Airbourne Surveyor: next step up from a robosurveyor, but a step down from EDWARD?
* Airbourne Scout: easier to scout due to terrain indifference.
That would probably be about it. Convecs and Cargo Trucks are unrealistic due to weight, and dozers and earthworkers would be useless airbourne.
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This is a game about smiting the enemy while keeping to the ways of op2. I dont try to surpress my enemy i try to wipe them off the face of the planet.
Yes Aircraft can be brought down with AAA and SAMs and other aircraft but with OP2 tech if a air craft is hit with a emp it would fall and die. Making Aircraft totally useless. But now youll just say well they can fly higher then that. And that is where we get our problem. Having the air craft out side the range of almost all weapons but some archaic earth weapons is just pointless. Even if both sides have aircraft whats going to happen then Air craft with emp and just take them all out by crashing them that just screams gayness.
Airborne scout is pretty much pointless if it does exactly what a normal scout can do. Dont need Carbon Copies.
Airborne serveyor is very pointless the surveyor has a nice little spike thinger that it uses to check the minerals and compisition. The Edward works by magnetics and such and you dont get it till you get the space port. I just dont see a aircraft servering the part of the surveyor when the one on the ground is going to work just as good.
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Valid point with the EMP, and the 'Flying higher than that' is kinda pointless. EMP stops electronics, but not Mechanics. If something is worked primarily mechanical, such as my Diesel truck, once it's running, if I don't have the fuel line wired to an eletric shut off, then an EMP wont kill it. But I do see the point, and having Aircraft w/ emp in the game is kinda pointless.
EDIT: Hold up, just had an idea. Give the aircraft some sort of weak shield to protect it from EMP. If the shield is magnetic based and at the right Polarity, it should be able to deflect an EMP Pulse up to a point, hence, allowing the aircraft to continue functioning.
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If i emp your truck it will drain the battery and your alternator might not work either its going to stop alot of the electrical activity. Your truck will just come to a slow stop lol. With aircraft unless your flying a Bi plane your going to have some kind of electronic because of the speeds or to compensate for the drag or even a fly by wire. How ever all the vecs in op2 were said to not have any people in them in combat with the exception of people in scouts durring certain missions. The AI would go offline till a redundant system restarted it but it would have fallen from the sky by then.
I think shields are totally out of the question. It has all that aura of star trek. Also if there are shields on the air craft people will be like well why dont we just put those on the buildings and not have to worry about emp missiles any more. one more reason not to have it.
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Freeza - Your objective (and the objective of most multiplayer games) might be to wipe out the enemy, but I don't think that fits the actual storyline. And if you want to wipe out the enemy, wouldn't you want more weapons available?
I don't disagree with the idea of flying scouts and surveyors. But then you run into the extension into military application. Unless you use the argument that the existing weapons are to heavy to fly. (Takes a 747 to fly a laser.) Flying scouts and surveyors would be faster.
Anyhow, you can't have your cake and eat it to. If you want to argue about shields being startrekkie and too futuristic, nobody has mentioned the fact that you can use lasers and machine guns to stop incomming weapons. The navy already uses the Phalanx system to stop inbound missiles and the army uses RPG type of system to stop incomming RPGs and TOW type missles. Not to mention that military vehicles are already hardened against EMP attacks. (EMP doesn't drain a battery.)
So a "mid futuristic" (if you want to call OP2 that) type of civilization would have the capability to stop an incomming RPG or stickyfoam round without shields...
This probably all belongs in a different thread. But I think my point here is that we're now getting into gameplay issues. If you made every weapon stoppable (and not just countered) then the battle portion would be an annoyance.
Sorry for the choppy message. I have to go...
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I agree with White_claw on this one. Yes, I'm a trekkie, thats where I got the inspiration for the idea of a shield, hence why I said 'WEAK' shield, something that would stop it only 50 to 75% of the time and is availible ONLY on aircraft and/or vehicles, there not being a powerful enough functional generator for a building. I didn't say an unstoppable shield, that would be pointless, but having a weak shield that can bounce off an EMP Sometimes would make the possibility of Aircraft much larger. I believe OP2 is far enough into the future to allow an application of at least weak basic shielding against something like EMP, unless of course you're going for something back in the stone age.
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I Do think about Multiplayer because NO one else seems to care about it. Multiplayer and Single player use the same units and tech. I dont see any reason why There should be a Multiplayer tech and a singleplayer tech. Single player has a story line but when people suggest things like AIR UNITS. Does it really sound like it belongs in op3? I think there was a thread about air units and the majority of the people didnt want them. Why do i only seem to talk about multiplayer is because when i fire up op3 in the future i want to have some nice battles with other players in a game that feels like op2 and really doesnt feel like a C&C AOE EE or Starcraft clone. Gameplay is a big factor you cant just think about storyline 100% and f*** the rest.
Several times has some one brought up this Phalanx system and i ask you is it really op2ish? I say it really isnt other then shooting down incoming s*** its really usuless. It cant stop laser microwave Thors hammer All the other weapons use projectiles that as you say can be shot down. I know youll say there is a percentage that they will beable to shoot them down. But people can just spam them. Now youll say well we can just put a limit on how many you can build. And that makes them useless.
Shields are shields even if there weak. Air units aint slow so if it possible for 10 out of 32 to get through a blockade then your CC is going to take it hard. And if you lower the percentage it would be like not having shields at all really making them pointless. And with these shields all I see is people wanting them on buildings and other vecs and that would just make having emp and the emp missile pointless.
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The EMP doesn't always work anyway in OP2 if you've looked. There is already a percentage of Failure. I suggested shields because they provide a way to impliment Air Units. If OP3 is made modible when it comes out, rest assured, I'll make my own modification for the game to have Air Units, as I'm getting to be a decent modeler. I forgot to mention about my Truck. Its a DIESEL. It works on COMPRESSION. Not a spark plug, there for, if the fuel wasn't attachted to an eletric shut off, then an EMP might kill the battery, alternator, and make all the instruments fail, but a 1985 Diesel will still run regaurdless, so don't say an EMP is going to disable something that is primarily mechanical.
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One point... EMP doesn't work on Spiders/Scorps - why not make it so it doesn't work on aircraft (MAYBE, IF they are included) too.
An airborne scout is quite a good idea, as I pointed out. It would be able to go across any terrain, whereas a scout would have to go around.
Example - Total Annihilation - it has Aircraft scouts, but at the same time has KBot, Vehicle and Ship scouts (radar vechs.) - why? Because aircraft can go anywhere. Why bother having the others? Aircraft are weaker, due to having more limits (More Armour = More Weight = Need More Power = More Weight etc) due to the fact that they need to counteract gravity, whereas vechs and ships have land or water to do that for them.
The same can be said about an airborne surveyor - movement advantages, and nothing stops it from using the same system as EDWARD, just a lot shorter range. Why use it? Cheaper. get it sooner than EDWARD, and can survey more beacons than a robosurveyor in the same amount of time due to its movement advantages.
If you wish to expand on this, perhaps have an airborne sureyor only able to find the beacons (if they are kept invisble until they're found - this was covered in another thread), and then have a robosurveyor survey it.
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I never suggested "Let's add a Phalanx system" or anything else to stop an incomming round. (And I wouldn't want it added.) What I was saying is that you can't use the argument that "It's too futuristic" to fend off shields and then say "they can't have aircraft" when we're talking about a race that has built an interstellar starship capable of freezing humans. I'm fairly certain they would have a grasp of aerodynamics.
Let me be clear. I'm not for shields. I'm not for a phalanx system or a reactive point defense system (unless it was a simple upgrade that enhanced hitpoints or "chance to hit" only).
What I said was that I'm not against aircraft because to me it's completely feasable. But I'm not sure I like the weaponization of aircraft.
I also never said I was against multiplayer considerations. That's why I said...
Freeza - Your objective (and the objective of most multiplayer games) might be to wipe out the enemy, but I don't think that fits the actual storyline. And if you want to wipe out the enemy, wouldn't you want more weapons available?
My point here was again, you're using the argument against a technology that "it doesn't fit OP2". But I argue that complete anniliation of the enemy isn't with the spirit of the OP universe either. (Though I do completely agree that it should be a goal of multiplayer games.)
OP1 goal = convince the breakaway colony to come back to your side...
OP2 goal = build a starship to get off the planet before the other side does...
That was my point.
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Yanno, White Claw is right there. You're not fighting to kill your enemy, you're fighting for survival. Your enemy just happens to be one of the many obstacles, maybe even the easyest of them.
And then, remember that in OP2 they did not have aircraft because New Terra was atmostphere-less. Aircraft are not beyond their skills, New Terra just couldn't support them
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Actually, New Terra does have an atmosphere. Its mostly Co2, like Mars.
Aircraft are very possible in an atmosphere like this. Personally, I like the idea of non-offensive aircraft but NOT in OP2. In a sequel I could see them as a natural advancement since aircraft could cover a massive area in little time with cheap equipment. Making sort of "sensor drone" aircraft would be feasible and believeable but giving them weapons would sort of introduce some negative issues that could easily be avoided simply by making them non-offensive.
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I like the idea of a light sensor drone, expecially if the atmosphere does not have oxygen in it, then it cant use jet engines, so the only form of propulsion avaible would be electric moter driven props, powered by cool fusion
that configuration would not allow it to be overly fast, nor be able to carry a heavy weapons payload, I could see with reshurch that it might be able to carry a targeting laser, increasing the accuracy of your ground units
so they would fill a niche like a preditor drone
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having non offensive air craft just makes it all sound pointless to even use.
and the preditor can carry 2 hellfire missiles
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Beta, theres a surveyor aircraft set to explore mars sometime in the next 5 years and it uses propellers. CO2 is the same as O2 where aerodynamics is concerned.
If i were actually to enable this, i would have research:
LVL0: Enables build of small, propeller-driven surveyor drones with one-shot movement; e.g. they cannot return and after one use (order), they fall to the ground. Very Cheap to build.
LVL1: Upgrades the surveyor drones chassis to something larger that can carry a conventional power system, Savant uplink and more sensor equipment. I havent decided if it should still use props or use jets. Cheap to build.
LVL2: Enables scout drones that are designed specifically for spying/recon. Uses jet propulsion to give almost doubled speed. Increased speed allows the wings to be smaller, narrower. Has simple ablative skin that disperses EMP effect. Expensive to build.
LVL3: Allows the launch of a modified LVL2 scout drone that can drop a single bomb the equivalent of a starflare. Due to the removal of equipment to allow the warhead payload, the craft has only one-shot movement. I dunno if only Plymouth should be able to build these, it depends really. Expensive to build.
And thats it. Thats all you can do with them. All you can do is spy with them and then only later after youve done research, gotten rare ore, fully researched explosives can you build a drone that can launch a single starflare bomb. This should keep things even since you couldnt research these immediately in the game and rush with them, but they would be great for harassment and thats about all they should be good for anyway.
Plus, Id allow research that lets most turrets fire at airborne units except for stickyfoam, EMP, ESG since their projectiles are basically packaged devices that deploy on impact. Only beam weapons and high-order mass drivers like the RPG would be able to hit them. Plus, the Meteor Defense would provide a massive area of defense from air units.
We wouldnt want air units to become a massive element of the game because it would change it way too much. If we have them at all, they would have to be something thats useful in high mark games and things like resource operation harassment and distractions are positions these aircraft would fill perfectly. They would be weak, but are enough of a concern to force a defending player pay attention and take care of them. And that would open up a huge amount of strategic possibilities. But again, we dont want to have waves of aircraft going back and forth in a Battle of Britain type thing. Just 3 or 4 roaming around the map irritating people. Plus the way the research would be setup, you wouldnt even see them until very high mark games at which point you would expect them anyway.
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I'm still not a fan of weaponization. If (for example) plymouth already has a missile, why whould they not use that to mount a starflare instead of just EMP?
(And as a side note, you would still have to have a counter system against offensive aircraft.)
Though Horus does impose some reasonable limits. Another thing would be to limit their range. This would make them a mainly defensive weapon that could be used to soften up an incomming attack. If you wanted to have a multiplayer air-war, you can just put the bases closer together (or unlock a long range option).
Some subtle options from Horus'.
Scout class -
--Something of your Lvl0/1 with upgradable armor (ablative) and upgradable engines (more than "one shot")
Weapon class - More of the Lvl3 (Still not a huge fan of this, but it's an option.)
-- Self destructive EMP or starflare payload?
Of course, I now forsee Freeza saying that they're going to get spammed like hell. This might be something that has to be play balanced.
If the weapons are expensive enough and self destruct, they would be mostly useful to slow a large incomming force, or as a distractor. Extended range scout ability would be useful against stealthy units (if those are included)
(Inflatibles may be more practical in a thin atmosphere.)
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Well I think its definately possible to have them in the game. It simply requires alot of careful tweaking and delicate placing of research and stats.
However I think inflatable units might be made fun of more than used or taken seriously. Also I dont know to what extent there would be stealth units. Probably none at all. The object is to keep their purpose very narrow so they dont dominate the game.
My reasoning behind the type of bomb they drop is that EMP missiles are huge. I dont think one could be carried and still have the same effectiveness as a missile. Starflares arent as dangerous as supernovas i.e. theyre smaller and probably easier to carry in an air vehicle. Plus, we dont want them to have super powerful weapons that can devastate someones base in one or two shots. We want them to be strictly harassment tools and I think starflares cant even destroy a cargo truck without a direct hit. We wouldnt want anything more powerful than that.
I think the one-shot movement is vital to keeping them as only harassment tools, especially the bomb-carrying units.
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I agree. I suppose that's why I'm in favor of limited ranges... And I wouldn't imagine an EMP as large as the missile variety.
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Bah what the hell is the point Limit its range make it a spy drone give it one bomb all these restrictions make this aircraft pointless to have and spend ore on.
Did you say some thing about blimps lol. those are slow and larger be very easy to take one out. Weather balloons why not use use a sat. Since we arent talking about OP2 the planet is a bit different we need to get details on the planet before you go any further with the whole air unit thing.
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Hear hear. I concur... Details of a planet would be important to the development of several ideas...
If you limit the range (and not so much else) you create a unit that would provide good base defense but limited offensive strike capability. (The enemy would be less likely to camp outside of your base.)
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I found this little tid bit in the archive
Um... that's incorrect. The planet that OP3 takes place in is Venus-like in nature (NOT VENUS ALIKE! IT'S DIFFERENT). The atmosphere is EXTREMELY thick and volatile and the normal tempuratures on the planet are circa 280 - 350 degrees Faranheight. It's very far from cold. Just a note.
http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.ph...opic=2067&st=96 (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=2067&st=96)
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Ok I still dont see how that would prevent the use of vehicles. Plus, Im not even talking about Genesis. Im just saying, its possible to have air units if theyre done right. Im not saying we NEED air units.
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I agree. The air units would is a good idea, but the restictions are a little strict, but its all good in the end.
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Air unit are pointless Why because IF your just going to limit there range and have them only as a scout then what point is there to having a flying scout that cant go very far. when you can just build a f***ing scout that can dirve as far as you want. If your talking about a picket line land scouts can also perform this job. Also having air units give them that factor that what if there are flying to high to be shot down or too fast to be shot down. Do they become a immortal unit? flying units do not fit in with the rest of the tech and units that are there. You may argue that Well they have rockets. Well a rocket is alot bigger and a lot more powerful and use a fuel that wouldnt work on a small craft like a drone.
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I know it doesnt fit, but they can and do make great advancements. Space travel was unlike them, but they were forced into developing it. They latter used it, and possably will again on the new world.
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Well, I think this is also going to boil down to what are we designing against? I don't know / can't tell if we're talking about a sequel to OP2, or a remake. If we want to get down to it, there's no reason to have a tech tree at all if we're talking about a sequel. They've already researched all the items they need. (Unless we're including new items.)
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These threads have been nothing but new things that could possibly be added to the already exsisting tech tree. Making a whole new tree would not make it a op2 sequel and incredibly hard.
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Hey frezza: (Attempt at makeing it sound like there explaning it)
The air units would be a branch of the old tech tree. It wouldnt be a weapon at first, just a arial survayor,scout, something. But then the war happened and the air units were redesigned to be weapons platforms, so now we have arial scout things, and arial weapons. But we've always had a problem with the weapon version of the craft, one that prevents it form flying out of range of all weapons exept starflare and supernova. We can outrun most vehicals though, making it cappable with running from a fight for repairs. These are expensvive for a unit, 1800 common, 600 rare, so reapairing them will save time in a major battle.
Operational Notes: The air units are only avalible to Eden. The air weapons can be fitted with any weapon, although it can only carry a lynx style turret.
Note: Air units can only be built at the hoverport, and can only dock at the hover port for repairs. The hoverport can hold 6 craft at a time.
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So A tech that is just suddenly there and not any part of the few chains of tech. Just Boom its there. Tigers arent Boom there you have to do a chain. I dong think any of the research would lead up to Air units.
Again air units are crap.
1. they will just be spammed because o the speed and swarms will be impossible to stop.
2. Having them as Eden only is a BIG BIG problem. A swarm of flying thors hammers = God like power that cant be stopped even by a emp missile.
3. People have suggested that they dont have the ablity to fly very far this makes those units totally useless and a waste of ore to build.
4. We already have Scouts why do we need a flying version of it.
5. 1800 and 600 common/rare that is like the cost of a Rail Panther, and those can still be spammed. Tigers that cost more then that can be spammed. Having them uber expensive is pointless to the unit that is weak super fast and can carry weapons.
6. Finaly some one thought of where they are going to land. Or just have them VTOL (Vertical Take Off and Landing).
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Air unit will have a HELL of a ride on Cythera. Why? Wind...simply. As you know on Venus there is A LOT of wind and wind tend to '''help'' aircraft touch the ground very hard.
I still do not think this is a good idea
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Your right. I wasnt considering the enviroment. No air units, it cant work.
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Glue a big metal stick to a plane and have it fly into the windows.
If we had aircraft, which we probably won't (I don't really care one way or the other), they'd probably only have lasers/mics, or maybe its own energy weapon (like the Scrop has).
But, the incredible winds would actually be the reason they have to re-research planes (because they need to be able to fly in the wind.)
But, in the end, why bother when a Lynx can do it so well?
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2. Having them as Eden only is a BIG BIG problem. A swarm of flying thors hammers = God like power that cant be stopped even by a emp missile.
I definitely agree with this...
5. 1800 and 600 common/rare that is like the cost of a Rail Panther, and those can still be spammed. Tigers that cost more then that can be spammed. Having them uber expensive is pointless to the unit that is weak super fast and can carry weapons.
If every unit can be spammed, then why are we arguing about spamming any units at all?
You could cripple the air unit by limiting how much it can shoot on a single sortie. Rather than a range or speed limit. Then it is useful for what aircraft are ment for. Deep strike and run, cavalry, or harrassment.
6. Finaly some one thought of where they are going to land. Or just have them VTOL (Vertical Take Off and Landing).
Yes, I brought this up before. I think someone mentioned earlier about having them dock at a hover port. Then you could only support air units commensurate with the number of hover ports you built. (also reducing spam)
Air unit will have a HELL of a ride on Cythera. Why? Wind...simply. As you know on Venus there is A LOT of wind and wind tend to '''help'' aircraft touch the ground very hard.
This is more of an argument against aircraft than anything else. It gives a reason why it wouldn't work! (Rather than "they can't") New terra couldn't support winged craft either.
Skydock - don't be so easily swayed man...
And lastly: Can someone explain to me why a ground unit can't fire at an air unit? Why could you not hit an air unit with a laser/mic, thor, or even EMP or RPG? Laser and thor don't require sophisticated targeting (they're instantaneous). And computation of lead for an EMP/RPG should be an issue for advanced computers...
Anyway... Sorry for the long post.
(A flying stick: You could call it a BAT-ering ram...)
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And lastly: Can someone explain to me why a ground unit can't fire at an air unit? Why could you not hit an air unit with a laser/mic, thor, or even EMP or RPG? Laser and thor don't require sophisticated targeting (they're instantaneous). And computation of lead for an EMP/RPG should be an issue for advanced computers...
Because It makes more sence for a Air Unit which by there nature are light and light armored to Avoid fire. The easiest way to do this is by flying Higher. For the Game they would have to fly with in range of there own weapons be it thors hammer emp ect.
Which makes me say that the Laser/Microwave will not work for they dont have a great range.
You could cripple the air unit by limiting how much it can shoot on a single sortie. Rather than a range or speed limit. Then it is useful for what aircraft are ment for. Deep strike and run, cavalry, or harrassment.
Because limiting there range of shots just doesnt make sence because the other units do not have to deal with reload or recharge. Given that these air craft would most likely have reactors in them.
Another problem is Plymouth's ESG will not work on air units. Talking from Surface to Air. A ESG lynx would not beable to take down a air unit Mines simply dont work mid air. Sticky on the other hand would be devestating to any air unit. Starflare/Super Nova not a change to hit a air unit.
Some one said that Flare/Nova couldnt be used on Air units. Thats not true. You pack a air unit with explosives and ram it into a building its quite effective.
I think with all the limitation that would have to be put on the air units themself to make the game fair. Also makes them pointless to use. Even if its just limiting the number of shots. Why send in a unit that will have to retreat when you can send in a unit that can stay around.
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Because it has good speed Freeza. Fast = Reatreat =Saves time and cost
Well, maby not.
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Has anyone even read my posts ?
Chandler Posted: Oct 25 2006, 08:17 PM
Good point White Claw. This is a battle for survival, and the fights between the colonies is only them trying to survive by stealing/setting back their opponent.
A couple of ideas of mine for non-offensive air units:
* Airbourne Surveyor: next step up from a robosurveyor, but a step down from EDWARD?
* Airbourne Scout: easier to scout due to terrain indifference.
That would probably be about it. Convecs and Cargo Trucks are unrealistic due to weight, and dozers and earthworkers would be useless airbourne.
Chandler Posted: Oct 26 2006, 08:33 PM
One point... EMP doesn't work on Spiders/Scorps - why not make it so it doesn't work on aircraft (MAYBE, IF they are included) too.
An airborne scout is quite a good idea, as I pointed out. It would be able to go across any terrain, whereas a scout would have to go around.
Example - Total Annihilation - it has Aircraft scouts, but at the same time has KBot, Vehicle and Ship scouts (radar vechs.) - why? Because aircraft can go anywhere. Why bother having the others? Aircraft are weaker, due to having more limits (More Armour = More Weight = Need More Power = More Weight etc) due to the fact that they need to counteract gravity, whereas vechs and ships have land or water to do that for them.
The same can be said about an airborne surveyor - movement advantages, and nothing stops it from using the same system as EDWARD, just a lot shorter range. Why use it? Cheaper. get it sooner than EDWARD, and can survey more beacons than a robosurveyor in the same amount of time due to its movement advantages.
If you wish to expand on this, perhaps have an airborne sureyor only able to find the beacons (if they are kept invisble until they're found - this was covered in another thread), and then have a robosurveyor survey it.
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Why send in a unit that will have to retreat when you can send in a unit that can stay around.
Because it's the speed and harrassment factor. You can thin out incoming forces without a full scale assult. You can hit a back door to the enemy base without a full scale assult that would be seen coming. You can use it as a diversionary tactic.
Anyhow, I don't think we're going to find an agreement on this any time soon. I don't think I can say anything to convince you (Freeza) of trying air units out. I'm not totally for them (i.e. They HAVE to be included), but I think they could at least be tried out.
There's no reason they have to be limited at all, assuming you treat them like other units. Now you have a flying lynx with the speed of a scout but able to cross all terrain. Sure ESG can't hit it, but then don't leave your ESG by themselves.
Has anyone even read my posts ?
Yes, I have. But the discussion has come full circle back to armed flying units.
I still think that we may have a problem with flying units (scouts or not) due to the environmentals. The wind speed would be a serious issue... Then again, 100-200MPH winds would be a problem for ground vechs too.
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Your right. I wasnt considering the enviroment. No air units, it cant work.
white claw is right...they can...But considering the nature of the wind on Venus-like planet...they are a real pain to fly.
Wind on Earth are not strong compared to Venus. Furthermore, Venus wind are more ..umpredictable and they do strike randomly more often. Here you can have a wind strike from nowhere but, the wind is fairly constant for is direction.
In those condition the only way to be sure that you don't crash is having the less wingspan you can possibly have...in order to do that you need a fast engine so you can fly with a limited wingspan. If we are considering Hovering, then scrap standard helicopter they will be throw down in a mather of second. Hovering with special engine COULD work as long as you are very aerodynamic from every side of your ship (so you don't catch in the wind that blow from everywhere). the problem is ....Hovering is not really fast. So do you really want a panther speed air unit?
I know a lot of thing about plane and how to fly. The only possible way to fly and be the least affected by air condition is simply not using air as a way to float. Example: snow speeder in star-wars used gravity drive. THey CAN't fly where there is 0 gravity.
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Gravity Drives seem a bit out there considering the rest of there tech.
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With 100-200mph winds, you won't need an engine... lol
FYI: Snowspeeders used Repulsor-lift drives (you got the idea right though, they lift them by repulsing gravity)
I agree with white claw - just give them a go. Many an RTS include aircraft, but they aren't unbalanced. Generals: seems unbalanced with the whole counter-measures, until you build some Gatling Guns or Laser Defs. And auroras? They die almost as soon as they drop their load, and if you've let someone build about 50 of them, its your own fault.
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are you sugesting doing plannor? I am not against air unit but, you can't deny that the will be more easy to break in pieces. Furthermore I don't think those kind of wind actually help plane at all unless they are aerodynamics from every side possible... if not they can be trown in many different direction including DOWN.
Convince me of this particular fact will be hard but, try your luck ;)
BUT I am not against plane I just need to figure out why they should be in. Do not forget that the idea of op is survival not perpetual war.
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I'll be clear about the fact that I don't think an air unit would work in 100-200MPH winds either. So if that's the fact in-game, I wouldn't support the idea of air units. But I'm not against air units under the basis of game play, balance issues, or because of "technology" issues.
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At the Speeds of 100 MPH most convential aircraft can lift off. But How ever with a planet that is so Hot There would be terrible turbulence. Massive Updrafts and Massive down drafts. Flying the craft would be extreemly difficult for even a AI. Not the mention the Acidity would increase the higher you got. The Environment of this planet wouldnt work for Air units They would be more possible on New Terra because its atmosphere is not hostile to units and buildings.
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Yes this is correct. Adding the wind in the current ''natural'' cons would clearly shut down this idea. I liked tho everything that is plane related =(
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Im sad now..... :(
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perhaps if there is fow early in the game you can release balloons that will drift with the wind, showing parts of the map, these would become obsolete of course once satellites are launched, but early on it might be usefull
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A ballon would get eaten up by the acid. And these winds are going to be very unpredictable. Having instrument readings of some thing so chaotic would be very pointless.
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who decided it would be so acidic it would eat everything? why would they land on such a planet in the first place?
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That seems to be the planet genesis is on. Take it up with the team.
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Okay everybody knows how lethal thors hammer is now try sticking it on a aircraft or for that matter Acid cloud hawk faster then tiger and is in the air. Yes while air units are awesome it would ruin OP3 to have them in there however transport flyers might be okay but no attacking aircraft or you just ruin it
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Actually, aircraft have two big disadvantages that would balance them out:
1) Being aerial, they can be a lot easier to destroy, thanks to a nifty force called "gravity".
2) Hitting a target is a lot more complicated with aircraft rather than with land vehicles.
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I don't think it would ruin OP3.
Simple - aircraft have a weight restriction: ie they can't carry much if they don't have the power (to produce enough thrust) and wingspan (to produce enough lift)
Basically: Only Lasers/Microwaves on aircraft, as all other weapons are too heavy.
And Arklons point is quite correct, being airborne makes it harder to aim, and also easier to destroy: Lets say (some number) hits of an RPG to take down one of these aircraft, or 1 hit from an EMP, since the aircraft won't be able to fly anymore... :D
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anybody who has played advance wars knows that even battle copters can own near anything on land yes having a weak weapon would fix the problem or being able to knock it down easy but then it's just a waste of good common metals
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anybody who has played advance wars knows that even battle copters can own near anything on land yes having a weak weapon would fix the problem or being able to knock it down easy but then it's just a waste of good common metals
That's Advance Wars.
Basically: Only Lasers/Microwaves on aircraft, as all other weapons are too heavy.
The other weapons don't look that much heavier than those.
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Well all the projectile weapons would need to store their projectiles, starflares are powerful (read: large-ish) explosives, and thor's hammer is a powerful (read: large-ish) capacitor.
It wouldn't be that much of a waste - their speed, maneuverability (spelling?) and abillity to pass straight over terrain a lynx would have to drive around is quite a good advantage.
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Making them weak in their integrity and in the damage they can punch makes them hardly any more useful than scorpions.
And there's plenty of aircraft today that launch missiles. Not that their supply of missiles is infinite.
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how about making harrier type planes? or a mixture between hovercrafts and planes?
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Or projectile based aircraft that can only fire a couple of rounds then have to return to base to reload (ala C&C).
Yes, I know this isn't C&C so please don't blast me about it... Thnx...
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1 cool fusion reactors
2 energy weapons dont need ammo
3 Air craft can only carry so much before they cant get off the ground or be come so ridiculously big for the small amount of fire power they will have.
4 No such thing as ammo exists in games other then FPS and Sim.
5 Air domination is a problem in other games
6 SAM (Surface to Air Missile) and AAA (Anti Air-craft Artillery) would have to be available to each side. Thors hammer and other weapons would not be able to reach a air craft realistically. In the game i could only see rail gun RPG Thors Acid EMP able to hit a air craft.
7 If a air craft is emped its not going to just float in the air its going to fall and die
8 Weapons on the air craft would have to beable to reach the ground. Meaning Missiles or bombs. Bringing us back to what every one doesnt want CARPET BOMBING and just plain mass missiles.
9 Even a army of EMP lynx is going to have a hard time defending against that.
10 Being able to destroy a vec with EMP is a no no.
11 The Atmosphere of the planet which is questionable in the first place wont really be able to support even buildings.
12 Even if they can magically survive. The next problem is lack of oxygen. leaving only propellers or some kind of plasma rockets. One is really really slow and wouldn't be able to lift much either in VTOL or standard configuration. Also making it a turkey shot if used. Plasma rockets would be extremely fast making the air craft impossible to hit. Unless your just going to spam AA fire. Which makes the air craft null and void.
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1 cool fusion reactors
Yes - power will not be a problem
2 energy weapons dont need ammo
Yes - but their range is limited (ie as a laser get further from its source, the beam diffracts more, making it weaker)
3 Air craft can only carry so much before they cant get off the ground or be come so ridiculously big for the small amount of fire power they will have.
Exactly, so they can only fire say (pick a number) 6 projectiles before having to land and reload (they can't fly if they carry more)
4 No such thing as ammo exists in games other then FPS and Sim.
We want OP3 to be original don't we? And if you'll remember games such as C&C: Tiberian Sun (spelling?) Orca Fighters and Bombers needed to land and reload.
5 Air domination is a problem in other games
Not really - many games use air units successfully (TA, C&C, etc)
The only problem is if people build 100 air units... but then, I see 100 Thor Hammer's as land superiority IF you don't put in defences against it. Hence we have SAM/AAA/EMP.
6 SAM (Surface to Air Missile) and AAA (Anti Air-craft Artillery) would have to be available to each side. Thors hammer and other weapons would not be able to reach a air craft realistically. In the game i could only see rail gun RPG Thors Acid EMP able to hit a air craft.
Yes - and projectile weapons would be pretty much the only weapons that could have the range to hit them.
7 If a air craft is emped its not going to just float in the air its going to fall and die
Correct - and hence air superiority won't be a problem - 1 Emp will kill 1 Aircraft
8 Weapons on the air craft would have to beable to reach the ground. Meaning Missiles or bombs. Bringing us back to what every one doesnt want CARPET BOMBING and just plain mass missiles.
What about amassing RPGs or Thors? Aircraft would have a similar (if not the same) range as RPG/EMP/Acid, so if you can't defend against them, then make yourself a better defense.
9 Even a army of EMP lynx is going to have a hard time defending against that.
Not really, as an RPG aircraft would have to hit an EMP lynx several times to destroy it, where as the EMP lynx would only have to hit the aircraft ONCE.
10 Being able to destroy a vec with EMP is a no no.
Essentially, your not destroying the aircraft, your just disabling it... it just happens that if it can't fly, it crashes into the ground.
11 The Atmosphere of the planet which is questionable in the first place wont really be able to support even buildings.
So where are our buildings going? Where are our vehicles going? Are we playing a game where we look at the scenery? :heh:
12 Even if they can magically survive. The next problem is lack of oxygen. leaving only propellers or some kind of plasma rockets. One is really really slow and wouldn't be able to lift much either in VTOL or standard configuration. Also making it a turkey shot if used....
All an aircraft needs to fly in is atmosphere - not oxygen, just some form of gas. The heavier the gas, the better, but as long as the aircraft can generate enough lift, it'll fly.
12 .... Plasma rockets would be extremely fast making the air craft impossible to hit....
Plasma rockets do not mean fast. We use something called a throttle to determine the amount of accelleration. Also, the size of the thrusters and amount of plasma available would determine the maximum thrust, and in a small aircraft, this wouldn't be all that much.
12 .... Unless your just going to spam AA fire. Which makes the air craft null and void.
Not really, as you have to have the ore to produce that many AAA, and if you have that much, chances are that the other player can produce that many aircraft. Same as massing GPs to protect against land units. Kinda makes land rushes null and void if you provide ample defense doesn't it? Better get rid of all the land vehicles too, just in case :heh:
Sorry about the post length. Just trying to answer the questions with my opinion. :D
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I think thatb there should be no 'air units' but instead some space units : :unsure:
EMP missle
RPG missle
Colony mover (a craft to send a command center to another location over long distances)
:huh: any comments ?? :)
:op2:
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One, chandler i am now convinced, aircrafts should definatly be included. Freeza been slammed!!
two, I think that space units (i am assuming that u mean being able to control in space) are a bad idea. There is enough of a problem controlling and mangaing ground control. Ummm i really don't see how that is technically possible, i mean how can u move an entire building to another area?? i know that was done in CC firestorm but I dont thing that it is remotely possible here. Maybe a building already under construciton?? like the structure kit which is being constructed can be slowly moved?? but then I don't see how it can be done. I don't think that it is a good idea
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who decided it would be so acidic it would eat everything? why would they land on such a planet in the first place?
Who said it was THAT acidic?
I am thinking of a helicopter/plane/VTOL (Vertical-Take-Off-and-Landing) Vehicle
If I remember correctly we said it was a weak version of Venus. But I really dislike the idea of Air units, and being on the rather 'warm' side :P, Freeza's example would be the reason we couldn't use them.
Okay, let's look at this from a novella standpoint. Not from a fun factor, war factor, or superiority factor. In OP2 they had the weapons they had for a reason and were able to carry that out without error.
Secondly, Why would they research this kind of weaponry? It's not like there is a threat in the air or something. They would see going into this new field would take a lot of work and testing before it could be achieved efficiently (and safely), and then seeing that ground units are far more feasible in terms of reliablility and ruggedness.
They would see the required resources (advanced computing, complex research, possibly harmful testing, expensive cost, maintenance costs) as a waste of time.
If you can make it fit with the storyline, then by all means tell us how it would work. I am confident it wont work on Cythera. New Terra it could work, but would be pointless imo due to those things I listed above.
No offence gamerscd, but a Command Center mover would just make the game long and boring. Many people dont like how EMP missles are done in Op2, so why would there be another one?
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Hey how about a LAHV or Low altitude Hover Vehicle. It would have a helicopter propeller in the middle which would be hollow allowing it to be protected. This unit could be used like my old hover vehicle post only this could be considered an air unit due to the propeler if added... Suggsestion.
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One, chandler i am now convinced, aircrafts should definatly be included. Freeza been slammed!!
two, I think that space units (i am assuming that u mean being able to control in space) are a bad idea. There is enough of a problem controlling and mangaing ground control. Ummm i really don't see how that is technically possible, i mean how can u move an entire building to another area?? i know that was done in CC firestorm but I dont thing that it is remotely possible here. Maybe a building already under construciton?? like the structure kit which is being constructed can be slowly moved?? but then I don't see how it can be done. I don't think that it is a good idea
Thanks Rags, but the idea was not to slam Freeza, just to provide my view of his problems.
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The thing that discourages me from being exited about air units in any OP game is...well...NASA hasn't done it yet.
One of the staples of the outpost series is it's scientific plausibility. We do have the technology now (or very soon), to put large-scale rovers in space and construct buildings much like the ones in OP2. Artists and NASA have been thinking about doing this for along time and have the plans to do so.
But the only ideas for any air vehicles in NASA were simply over glorified Gliders. Rigged with cameras, a rudimentary AI, at best they'd be flying around the landscape looking at things and taking readings of the atmosphere.
They would be as light as they could be for purposes of space and to keep aloft.
The only 'air' vehicles I've seen in NASA art are space-to-ground landing vehicles, or ground-to-space vehicles.
The best we'd end up with probably is something like the UAVs they have going now... and they're just beginning to arm them with light weapons and missiles.
And considering the atmosphere of Genesis' planet, would UAVs really be safe up there in a turbulent, windy environment?
In my opinion, Colony leaders would put more faith in the tried-and-true combat platforms that were tested on new Terra, instead of spending money on unreliable aircraft.
But that's just my opinion *shrugs*