Outpost Universe Forums
Off Topic => General Interest => Topic started by: dm-horus on October 25, 2006, 02:20:38 AM
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I have a theory about OPU. Maybe its already dead. It just hasnt been buried yet.
With everyone pulling in so many directions, nothing goes anywhere. The people and groups pulling at OPU strain so much that they become weak. I think this is what has already happened to OPU. People come on to IRC when they get bored and expect something to be there waiting for them and when there isnt, arent willing to do something for themselves.
All the sequel projects going in opposite directions is totally pointless. So far we have 4 "teams" composed of 2-4 people working on sequels. We have a group who both obviously and admittedly dont care about OPU as much as they should and we have a group who dont know what theyre doing and expect the few people who do to do all the work for them. The other projects are either dead or might as well be considered to be. We all want to convince everyone that we all have a crack team of professionals working on our games..... but we dont. None of us do. Its all about c*ck size. Even if the game never gets made or never existed to begin with, being considered the CEO of Outpost Games Inc. is good enough.
Im sure some people will jump to conclusions about this thread and somehow make it out to be evidence of my corruption. But seriously, some people at OPU must really think Freeza and hacker are morons if they think my *glaring* corruption could escape them and yet be so obvious to everyone else. C'mon guys. I make valid points and trying to change the subject my making frivolous claims of corruption doesnt help. So please, consider this thread.
I find very few people actually willing to work together on anything. I know we all have opinions, but thats no reason to go out and form your own little clique that nobody else is allowed in unless theyre "cool". Why is everyone here? Because we like OP2? I sure hope so. And those of us who are interested in making a sequel shouldnt be trying to stoke our egos by naming ourselves CEO of "The Only Outpost Sequel" or "Outpost 3: Give Me Money".
I made Colony3 in an effort to bring everyone together and yet somehow that was seen as glaring evidence of corruption. Interesting isnt it? Doesnt that say something about those people? Paranoia isnt a virtue, guys. Could we stop playing our little political games and work together on something productive? Can we just ignore money or status and just create something really cool?
I think its pretty true that paranoia, corruption and greed are what destroy great places (governments, countries, etc) and I think that rot isnt just infecting OPU - I think its already killed it off. The only thing keeping OPU alive is the fact that its the only place to find multiplayer games and its familiar to some of us. Thats why its populated entirely by regulars and we get very few new users. We arent welcoming. We arent nice. We arent productive.
The attitudes of me, Hacker and Freeza are the result of managing a community like this. So if you see something happen that youre not sure of by one of the admins - trust me, we all keep tabs on eachother and everything we do is in an effort keep this place hanging on by a thread.
OPU needs something to revitalize itself and I think making an unofficial sequel to OP2 would be a GREAT way to do that, but we cant do it while fighting eachother, being paranoid, having agendas or just in it for the envy of money and/or power. From what Ive seen the leaders of the various projects have enough skill to make a good OP3 if they all combined efforts. Id really like to see people stop fighting eachother, passing sarcastic comments and just do what we are all here to do - to make and play great games in the Outpost universe. Thats what I created Colony3 for, but from what I can see preventing fraud, theft and the general nastiness that is taking hold on OPU would be more work than Im willing to give. Something has to change if we are going to survive and it certainly must if we hope to have a sequel happen. It doesnt matter how confident or arrogant some people are, a sequel needs OPU and vice versa.
I know u hate me for making u read B)
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I know they will argue that we are all corrupt there for we do what ever we want even if we keep tabs on each other. But its sound like one of those crazy people that are walking around saying there out there man there coming to get us all and anal probes are just the begining.
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maybe it's just a period of flotation...
media don't stop to say us that there is not any more petrol, sonyis doing stranges politic actions to sell very expensive the ps3, vista will appear and rumors say that there is a lot of chicanery around, etc. we are stressed, it's normal :unsure: :(
I am sure in two or three mounts, situation will be regulated!
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Yes, that is understandable siqueule. I can relate to the issue of stress, myself. Ive been wondering if things happening in the world are the cause for the recent rash of school shootings in the US. Living on the West coast near a nuclear sub base, I don't allow myself to watch CNN these days (prime target for NK).
If stress *is* the cause for the symptoms plagueing OPU, couldnt we treat it like a sanctuary from the things that bring us down? :P
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oh come on, guys, we streched op2 sequel to everywhere (op3 genesis, TFC....)
It should be only 1 op3 to increase efficency in working.
Now everybody is shouting and yelling and insulting becuse of a different op3 or whose is better (WTF is this s*** happening?)
OP3 should be only one, everyone has to sit and together talk how to will it be the same and good to each side. The more are working on one the better it will be.
WE DON'T NEED 403 OP3'S
We should make OP3, in the main menu: genesis story, next menu: TFC story, next menu: ****** story
:op2:
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I think the thing is, people need to start being a little bit more selfless when it comes to projects.
For example, instead of a group of people saying "This is OUR op3" they need to start letting the community in on it, instead of cloistering themselves away in a little corner.
As for OPU itself, there are lots of places where work could be done. There is lots of work to be done on the wiki and the site, those who have accounts should really be trying to help out. Those who don't have accounts, let me know and I'll create some.
There are also 'decision' threads such as the wiki thread, I'm also surprised that more people don't post in them.
Finally, I think a few people (not saying names) need to stop thinking of everything as some "conspiracy" or "dirty little secret." (like the whole Colony3 thing).
As for becoming more friendly for new people, we need to organize information for new people and also allow them to participate in discussions. As I outlined in the other thread I posted before, it seems a lot of people treat new people roughly.
People need to stop talking about others behind their backs as well. It's forced several people out of the community and I, as well as Horus and Freeza, will severely punish any person who goes around trying to create gossip or otherwise make someone look bad.
As for the whole 'admin / mod corruption / abuse of power' that many people seem to think exists, (but yet we don't hear much about it until one of these threads come up) let me just tell you this: we have clearly outlined the rules. If people want to break them, they are going to be punished. Furthermore, we can't come to the forums asking for authority to punish someone beforehand (if that was the case nothing would get done and the spammers and kiddies would be out of control). There haven't been many problems with this sort of thing lately but I can recall cases in the past (i.e. 4-6 months ago) where people thought there was an abuse of power because a spammer was banned.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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Can I have a Wiki acount?
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Can I have a Wiki acount?
You should be set (talked about it on IRC). Let one of us know if you have trouble logging in or having troubles editing.
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Yes I'm new here so you can all just tell me to shut the f up. But from my experiences, the written word (especially on the internet) tends to be read more litterally and personal than often intended.
I'm not insuating that we need to all be "touchy feely" in our posts, but just consider for a moment that someone _might_ read your post as a personal attack. So instead of saying "that idea is just bull s***" and "that's a stupid idea", you need to include something particular...
i.e. "Sea units are not a good idea because there isn't going to be water in OP3" instead of "Sea units are stupid. I don't agree..." (not that this was said, but to illustrate a point)
With that said, when you read a post, try not to take it personally. It _probably_ wasn't meant that way and just needs clarification...
Bottom line is that I imagine most of the hard feelings are just inflamation of an off handed comment that grew into a festering wound...
Just my $0.02
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Very concise. I agree. I think everyone is a little stressed out and tends to go overboard. Every disagreement is an attack, every discussion a debate, every comment is an insult.
Unfortunately, sarcasm doesnt transate over 155 keys so adding that into the mix only makes things harder. But, its a narrow line to walk by being brutally honest or just a jerk. I think we all cross over that at one time or another.
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Its a bulitin board. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You shouldn't change what you are going to say because you are worried that it is going to offend someone. Of course some posts are going to be interpretted as personal critisim. But again it is your opinion, and if you don't want to have your own opinion critisied, then don't post.
However you do need to make sure that your opinion can be interpretted by everyone else, there is no point in having an opinion, if you can't voice it in a away that others will understand. i.e. "The sea unit idea is bulls***", is an opinion that no one will underdstand & is rude.
Saying that the "sea unit is a bad idea because there is no water, or just can be implemented" is a better way to express your opinion (and you in the meantime can continue to think their idea was bulls*** in the first place, but have constructivly answered or added you opinion)
Providing your posts arn't down right rude or insulting (or completly irrevelent) then you have an opinion worth voicing
Telling someone that there idea is "bull s***" is most definatly down right rude and flaming. Those posts / threads tend to get locked or removed pretty quickly. Before the classic flame war gets out of hand (For those who don't know its when you get very angry at the previous persons post and decide to insult them back)
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Yes, Mez. I think we are all guilty of going too far at one time or another. We need to make sure our posts can be interpreted how they are meant to, and its not always a good idea to piss people off. We want people to express themselves and not be censored, but we should try and keep it clean and fun.
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I sort of wonder if there is enough "bad" stuff going on to even warrant this thread. Are you sure this isn't just an overreaction to some small event? I mean I really get no sense of overall community breakdown, at least not until I go reading threads like these. Kinda seemed like everything was moving along fine, at least between the majority of people.
I guess a few points were made that I agree with. I have found this site a little less "fun" as of late. Although, I think a lot of that (aside from great real life pressures) is reading through threads like these (rather than being witness to any of the things these threads are talking about). Sure it's a way to get the message to trouble makers, or would be trouble makers, but it seems more like we're posting up a great big "hey we're dysfunctional!" for the entire internet to see. :unsure: Maybe try a PM targeted at the people you were thinking of? It's probably more effective at getting the message across.
Now I agree there are some issues with any of the sequel projects ever getting finished, and if they are finished, what they'll be like. I've felt a few ideas suggested in those forums don't feel very OP2 like. Sometimes it gets to a point where it's mildly annoying. And I also tend to get rather pessimistic about any projects ever getting finished. It seems like people start on a project, are all hyped for a short period of time, and get bored well before the game gets anywhere close to being finished and abandon the project. Then of course some new people come along and repeat. Yeah, I know, it's classic. What game hasn't suffered a similar fate?
But is any of that even a problem? I mean who really cares all that much if their projects fail. I came here because of OP2, not some potential future OP3 project. Sure it'd be nice and I wouldn't mind seeing one someday, but I'm not exactly getting my hopes up about it. I know projects like these often don't get finished, but that doesn't mean that can't be fun to work on. Remember that people are here to have fun, and if they derive some great satisfaction from comming up with their own idea for OP3, and maybe even doing a little planning or presenting so they feel they've accomplished something (even if it's far short of a complete game, or even the first line of code), well hey, let them. If they weren't having fun, they wouldn't be here. Sure you can try and caddle prod them into some sort of organization and try to actually force a real full game out of them, but if they just don't want to be cattle prodded around, it's not going to work. Besides, even people who have studied programming for a long time wouldn't necessarily even know where to start for a project this big. It's pretty hard to organize when nobody really knows where to start. But hey, if people ever manage to get something together and produce a game, my hat goes off to you. (And if nobody ever does manage to produce a game, then what does it matter if you thought their ideas just didn't fit in with OP2?)
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I understand what youre saying, Hooman but its that sort of "it will work itself out if I dont pay attention to it" that I think is the source of our problems. This isnt a place where people just come to chill - there are people doing real work here and for those people, I think these kinds of issues are more pointed.
The people working on the projects (but not just them) are using community resources, spreading gossip and outright lies, stabbing people in the back, stressing people out and generally making things less fun. I think that DOES warrant discussion. Just because the causes are petty doesnt mean the symptoms are as well. Even if people freak out over a minute issue, theyre still freaking out (I use that term loosly). The constant chime of "corruption" is always here even if it isnt spelled out so clearly, its often found subtly throughout the forum in the form of sarcasm, gossip and paranoia.
Yes, these are little things. No, they arent full blown anarchy. But should we let things slide until they become that bad? Thats what this thread is about and I dont think censoring it just so we dont appear screwed up to the internet is a good excuse. Also, I havent seen much of you around lately. Youve popped in on IRC a few times but to be honest I dont think youre quite up to date on the happenings going on at OPU (Im not attacking you, please dont interpret this as an accusation). Also remember most of the issues going on are between the regulars. When they arent around it appears as though nothing is happening.
Im expressing a theory and some concern in the trends (notice my wording there) at OPU. I want to bring to attention that we are on a downward slope. It might simply be a temporary dip, or another turn on the bell curve; but we shouldnt expect problems to work themselves out. As I said before, I think that type of thinking is what perpetuates some of the problems. When we see something happen we should get active and do something about it, not expect someone else to take care of it or hope it resolves itself. Once again it comes down to teamwork and comraderie, which I think is something we have taken for granted of late.
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Im really glad to see this discussion continuing in a civil manner. I think so far, this is productive and contains some valuable opinions. Id like to hear more feedback from the general OPU population, especially the less regular users. What do we need to work on? What are your thoughts? What do you think the state of OPU is and where do you think its headed? Make sure you keep it civil and productive.
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I know a (french) forum, it was a quiet and pleasant forum two years ago...
today, it's the hell . [/size]
racists, flooders, have infested this forum! (there is too a sort of sect <_< )we can't say somethink because a lot of guy say that they don't care, and the news peoples think that is normal and they do the same thinks, and moderators don't react :unsure: because hatred and laxism have slowly accumulated :ph34r:
so, be nice :)
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Yeah, apathy tends to sneak its way in. Many online communities fall prey to it. You should come on IRC more often, siqueule!!
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yes, I thank seriously about return to irc. this week end, i will download the files :)
but in this moment, I can't go to internet when I want, my laptop has roasted :blink: and I must go to the informatic room to have internet :rolleyes:
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I agree with what was first said by Horus.
Also I agree with hacker that I am surprised that more people just dont take part in forum threads or little jobs that they could do im sure. There is unlimited stuff to be done and you dont need to be a master at computing to do it. Maybe we need to get more organized and make it easyer for people to help out with the community but everyone could at least sate their opinion when it comes to a decision thread.
I think the admins do a great job and I am very greatfull for the time that they and others put it, I wish I could put more time in currently. I am thankfull that we have the team that we do and all of the regulars. But we need newbies to grow and stay alive. And realy it comes down to personal choise weather or not a newbie will stay with the game and community once they join. I have seen so many people come here and not stay for long. Its a shame but there is probably not too much we can do about it. On the whole I think people try and be helpfully and are nice but I agree with whats been said, people need to put differences aside. I've said it before and Ill say it again, were here for Outpost 2. I wish ZZJ would of seen that and stayed.
And yes we dont need loads of projects been worked on and made, we need one main new game and other small projects. Thank you to everyone who loves Outpost enough to spend their time and effort to help out the community and work on projects.
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okay, I'm bored of trying to read all this nonsense.
You all keep talking about how things NEED to happen, but what actions are taking to MAKE them happen?
Fact: OPU died a long time ago. We've just been keeping it on life support.
Fact: OP3 will NEVER be finished, because the people in charge of the groups have their own visions. They will only pull together if their vision of what OP3 should be is fully incorperated.
Fact: The members of OPU are getting worse over time. Take a moment to look through the old forums of this community. At Kevin AR's forum, everyone was happy, no one flamed, no one swore, everyone got along or didn't talk to/about/towards those they didn't care for. At kiler's forum, the spamming started. When xfir ran the forums, things got a little better for a short time. Then the community started growing with new players and some of the old players were harrassing the new players! WTFH is up with that? I saw people bragging when they beat someone who was playing multi for the first f***ing time! And now, we got people at eachother's throats half the time!
Fact: The outpost serries is dead. People are graphics whores. They take one look at OP1 and OP2, see the '96 graphics and turn thier noses up at it. However, this one can be changed VERY easily.
To the programmers: PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES! If I could code, I'd be gathering you all up together into a single group, and helping you get the projects finished 1 at a time. However, I don't know how to code yet, so you guys will have to pull yourselves together, find the porject that has the most done, finish that one, then work on the next one. Think of it as expansion packs for a core project.
To the members of OPU: STOP LISTENING TO THE NEWS FFS! Turn off that TV, put down that newspaper, and put on some good music. s*** happens everyday, if it's important, you'll hear about it without the news. Calm down, and stop being so f***ing paranoid all the time. The other day, I got a private message in IRC from someone trying to get me to tell hacker to take away horus's possision on the forums and IRC because he thought Horus was trying to take over outpost completely and comercialise it. Now, Horus can be an ass at times, but I know he would not do that.
As to reviving the interest in the Outpost games: MAKE SOME VIDS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! If we make a bunch of in game vids to promote OP2, and post them on all the most-used vid servers, then people will see them! If people see them, they will get interested. Interested people = new members!
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The one thing about having people in power is some one will always stand up and say we dont need them we cant do things just as good as them there all a bunch of power hungry jack offs. They will be there and gather the people around and tell them about the old time when some one else was in charge and they liked them and every thing seemed to smell like roses. This will happen no matter what people are always going to think that the admin position is full of corrupt basts that are just doing things for there own gain. This is why we have the KKK, Neo Nazis, and many other groups of people trying to fight "the man". Every one wants to say that We the admin are corrupt but then they dont have to do our job and deal with all the crap that happens because people want to fight about a game they just played or they want to spam the channel to make fun of some one then turn around to cry about banning some one because there spamming etc. There is non visible stuff that the admins do. Like the server it was some what hacked and Hacker logged into the root and fixed and and got rid of a few holes. Hacker added the OPU|bot to Hamachi so it could ban people and keep the chan clean so people could get in the server and enjoy a game of op2 with out having to figure out whos on what server or making a new server. Horus did a little bit of web stuff. Me I am mostly just a janitor I do forum cleaning and editing and watch the IRC chans. If we are all around and one of us see a bad flamish post or thread we bring it up and we see if it should be deleted. If no one is around we make the judgement call. The threads are really just moved to a trash can. That way if they were deleted with out a good reason they can be put back up. But when we do have to do it by our self we tell each other via a PM on the forums. Well thats all I have to say about the so called corruption
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I don't want to say a lot here, because I don't have much time.
1. OPU was more friendly years ago. Would be great if it could be again.
2. if we want to get somewhere, we have to cooperate. That doesn't necessarily mean that everybody work on the same project, but that at least projects are not boycotted by others.
3. people working on sequals have different ideas and plans. I for myself wouldn't work on an op3 that won't fulfill my expectations. As long as noone pays me, I will only work on what I like. Of course I'm trying to choose projects that are good for opu (in my eyes).
And then there are people. I won't work on a project with people who I don't like.
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People keep saying that we should combine our efforts in making Op3, however the leaders of said Op3s are the ones who should make that decision in the end. They should be the ones to ask for help on the irc, or fourms. If someone were to come up to me with something for me to do (that I can reasonably do) I would do it. However just being told that I should be helping so-and-so doesn't help anyone.
It seems to me this kind of topic has been around the fourms a few times, and nothing much has happend. I personaly would like to get past the point where we list all of the things wrong with OPU and argue if they really exist or not.
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You all keep talking about how things NEED to happen, but what actions are taking to MAKE them happen?
Fact: OPU died a long time ago. We've just been keeping it on life support.
That's not a really good attitude to have.. if OPU was really dead then these forums would probably not be here. (nor would any one of us be posting on them).
And part of the reason this thread is here to get people into gear, working on stuff. There are lots of opportunities, no one exercises these opportunities.
Fact: OP3 will NEVER be finished, because the people in charge of the groups have their own visions. They will only pull together if their vision of what OP3 should be is fully incorperated.
I agree with that. People need to band together. My feeling about OP3 is, everyone should get together and make a version that overall the community likes. Then, if you want to add features to make it your own form / version of OP3, go ahead and modify it to your liking.
Fact: The members of OPU are getting worse over time. Take a moment to look through the old forums of this community. At Kevin AR's forum, everyone was happy, no one flamed, no one swore, everyone got along or didn't talk to/about/towards those they didn't care for. At kiler's forum, the spamming started. When xfir ran the forums, things got a little better for a short time. Then the community started growing with new players and some of the old players were harrassing the new players! WTFH is up with that? I saw people bragging when they beat someone who was playing multi for the first f***ing time! And now, we got people at eachother's throats half the time!
Refer to my earlier post (trying to get people to use more tact online). This is also partly related to the admin corruption type of thing. It seems often that we try to deal with someone who is acting like a moron we get stereotyped as the "spam nazis" or people want justification for why someone was kicked, banned, or their posts deleted, some screaming "power abuse" all the way.
The simple fact is, none of this (the way people are treating one another) is going to change if we have to justify every administrative or moderation action with everyone else. We're just going to have to go ahead and do it. As I said already, we have rules posted, if people break the rules, there aren't going to be too many exceptions.
And sometimes perhaps we should be even MORE vigilant in punishing people who sit and flame each other or get into an hour long argument about a game.
Fact: The outpost serries is dead. People are graphics whores. They take one look at OP1 and OP2, see the '96 graphics and turn thier noses up at it. However, this one can be changed VERY easily.
A lot of that is just out of our control. People are obsessed with the latest 3D effects, we can't suddenly change that. This is the case with most old games, not just OP2. And of course it doesn't help that OP1 was a flop, and OP2 didn't get near the exposure it should have in stores. But again, there is nothing we can do to change this.
To the programmers: PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES! If I could code, I'd be gathering you all up together into a single group, and helping you get the projects finished 1 at a time. However, I don't know how to code yet, so you guys will have to pull yourselves together, find the porject that has the most done, finish that one, then work on the next one. Think of it as expansion packs for a core project.
Okay, comments like this can get a bit irritating after awhile. I know you mean well, but writing an application is rarely something you just sit down and do in a single night. First of all, there aren't a huge number of programmers at OPU. There are very few who can do things such as patches or code analysis on OP2. This requires more than just basic C++ skills (you have to understand assembly and compiler-generated structures at the assembly level, etc). This makes it hard for every single person to get together and work on the same project (everyone has varying skills and different amounts of time in which they can work).
Also, when people tell me to "get to work on a project NOW" I tend to get rather irritated at that.
I do agree that projects need to actually get completed though, instead of just sitting there unfinished.
To the members of OPU: STOP LISTENING TO THE NEWS FFS! Turn off that TV, put down that newspaper, and put on some good music. s*** happens everyday, if it's important, you'll hear about it without the news. Calm down, and stop being so f***ing paranoid all the time. The other day, I got a private message in IRC from someone trying to get me to tell hacker to take away horus's possision on the forums and IRC because he thought Horus was trying to take over outpost completely and comercialise it. Now, Horus can be an ass at times, but I know he would not do that.
Yes, I agree with not watching the mainstream news (they twist and sensationalize everything), but what does that have to do with OPU?
As for the claim that Horus was attempting to commercialize it, I'll say again, it's getting very frustrating listening to people who want to take everything they hear about a new project and think of it as some kind of "conspiracy." Horus is NOT attempting to commercialize OPU, nor would any of us let that happen. In fact, if these 'conspiracy theories' keep happening, we might need to start laying out some temp bans to get the people involved to shape up. I hate to say this, but if every new thing like Colony3 appears to a certain few as some sort of 'plot' or 'conspiracy' to destroy OPU, we have to deal with them one way or another.
As to reviving the interest in the Outpost games: MAKE SOME VIDS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! If we make a bunch of in game vids to promote OP2, and post them on all the most-used vid servers, then people will see them! If people see them, they will get interested. Interested people = new members!
That does sound like a good idea. Again, we should finish some form of NAT passthrough support (another unfinished project :(), once that is done no one should have problems being able to play OP2.
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So theres yet another conspiracy theory? I think I know to what event you are referring to CK9: when I went in the main chan and wrote in big caps "I AM HORUS AND I AM PLOTTING TO TAKE OVER OPU." Thats the kind of paranoia and well, stupidity that doesnt help OPU. I was obviously being sarcastic. In fact, I was making fun of the people who are always calling corruption on me because Im brutally honest :P I had no idea people were so convinced of my corruption that they will ignore obvious evidence otherwise. Also, how did anyone get the idea that Im trying commercialize OP2? Im sorry but thats just ridiculous. I think everything Ive done has been against commercialization. Is all this evidence of how far from reality some people are? tbh, its like theyre at a different OPU.
To the programmers: PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES! If I could code, I'd be gathering you all up together into a single group, and helping you get the projects finished 1 at a time. However, I don't know how to code yet, so you guys will have to pull yourselves together, find the porject that has the most done, finish that one, then work on the next one. Think of it as expansion packs for a core project.
Comments like these that help nobody. "PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES!" Do you think anyone would want to code for someone if they told them that? I really think we should all be on our knees kissing hacker's ass for the FREE work he has put in so far. He certainly isnt required to do anything for us and yet there he is fixing problems and writing up solutions. Last time I checked, CK9 hasnt patched OP2 or done anything for the VPN. If the programer's service is so poor, why not fix the problems yourself?
It is true that OPU is getting worse. Thats precisely why I started this thread.
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In fact, if these 'conspiracy theories' keep happening, we might need to start laying out some temp bans to get the people involved to shape up. I hate to say this, but if every new thing like Colony3 appears to a certain few as some sort of 'plot' or 'conspiracy' to destroy OPU, we have to deal with them one way or another.
Heh, if that doesn't cause paranoia.... :heh:
I know what you mean though. People shouting conspiracy all the time get kind of annoying. It doesn't exactly lead to anything good.
Agreed about watching mainstream news. :P
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To the programmers: PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES! If I could code, I'd be gathering you all up together into a single group, and helping you get the projects finished 1 at a time. However, I don't know how to code yet, so you guys will have to pull yourselves together, find the porject that has the most done, finish that one, then work on the next one. Think of it as expansion packs for a core project.
Okay, comments like this can get a bit irritating after awhile. I know you mean well, but writing an application is rarely something you just sit down and do in a single night. First of all, there aren't a huge number of programmers at OPU. There are very few who can do things such as patches or code analysis on OP2. This requires more than just basic C++ skills (you have to understand assembly and compiler-generated structures at the assembly level, etc). This makes it hard for every single person to get together and work on the same project (everyone has varying skills and different amounts of time in which they can work).
Also, when people tell me to "get to work on a project NOW" I tend to get rather irritated at that.
Agreed.
Comments like these that help nobody. "PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES!" Do you think anyone would want to code for someone if they told them that?
Also agreed.
I think this is maybe one of the reasons why I object to what Horus is attempting here. Even if the language isn't the same, the attitude kind of is. Although, with that said, I do agree with what he's trying to accomplish, just not the way it's being done.
Last time I checked, CK9 hasnt patched OP2 or done anything for the VPN. If the programer's service is so poor, why not fix the problems yourself?
Well don't expect CK9 to help out now based on what you just said.
Mcshay and TH300, I hear ya. Well put, that's how I feel.
It'd be nice if there was a project organized to a point where there was a bunch of small tasks laid out, and if you felt like contributing, you could just grab one of the small tasks and do it. Nice simple clear objectives that don't take too much time to do. It seems more likely that a project will get done if it's first organized so it looks appealing and attracts people to it, rather than trying to push people together and hoping they organize.
But unfortunately, all I can do is talk about it. Sorry Mcshay. :(
And I wasn't advocating apathy in my last post so much as keeping things in perspective. I didn't say don't deal with things you think are wrong. I said consider dealing with them in a different way. And if things don't go your way, keep in mind that it probably doesn't really matter in the end.
As for that idea that we should be nicer to each other, yes, we should. But Horus, don't you think that comment is at least partly aimed at you? Ever since you've showed up you've had a way of getting to people. I've never doubted you're drive to get things done, but I've always thought you've had a way with people that's very likely to be counter productive. Sure I can appreciate someone being frank about something, but I think you often take things too far. You could try responding to people in a way that gets them to do what's right, rather than telling them what you think in the bluntest terms possible, hope they see the light, put aside their anger, and do what's right.
And does anyone else get the same feeling from this thread that they get from mainstream news? <_<
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lol just because i piss people off doesnt mean im doing it on purpose :)
the fact is, theres only ever been 2 or 3 other people who see me without bias and thats hacker, freeza and maybe lev. yes, i know i can be an ass sometimes but we are all guilty of that. i by no means forget that i am a human being.
and to be quite frank, if someone is so flaky that saying "well, why dont YOU code something up?" is enough to make them not do it, i think theyre just looking for an excuse not to work. thats why i say, hacker absorbs alot of crap from people while putting in a great deal of work. nobody else here has as much responsibility or takes as much crap as he does except maybe Galactic. I think they both deserve a bit more respect for what they do.
and seriously, dont take this the wrong way but you arent around that much. you dont see the discussions myself hacker and freeza have or the effort i expend. its easy to think of me like im still a brand-spanking new member, but being an admin changes your outlook on things.
i get the feeling that some people are resorting to picking out individual issues and picking them to death. i know im the messenger, so its easy to bash me and point out all my failings but thats not why we're here. we need to discuss OPU issues, not the the interpretation of the tone of people's topics.
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Well, horus you tend to be quite rude against people which might be what causes them to get paranoid around you and your jokes. I haven't seen anything that indicates you conspiring anything against OPU, and I don't see why you would. The only thing I've heard about any conspiracy theories is in this thread. :/
I have to agree with your points. People here at OPU need to start working more together and slander each other less. But trying to force people together on voluntary projects just doesn't work, no matter how much input the community gives to them you still can't force them to be more open. Trying to push people too much might just end up making them leave, which I don't think is a help at all. The only thing you can really do is to try to encourage teamwork as much as possible.
As for getting more people involved in work at OPU, you need to make a list or something specific of things that should be done. I don't think everybody that can edit the wiki and website really has any idea what they should edit most of the time. If you have something specific you want done, then ask some community members if they could do it. Maybe make a thread or something about what needs to be done and maybe even one for making requests too.
If you get teamwork to be a regular part of the community, then maybe it will be easier to get everyone working together on some bigger project later.
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Colony3 is totally voluntary. Thats the point. Only people who WANT to work will be working on projects, thus (hopefully) weeding out the layabouts.
At one point Lev posted a "OPU Jobs" in the news and it was actually pretty well received. Maybe we should code up a board that admins can add jobs to, users can apply to do and will display the people working on them and the progress.
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I have a theory about OPU. Maybe its already dead. It just hasnt been buried yet.
With everyone pulling in so many directions, nothing goes anywhere.
By that logic the entire Earth should be annhilated in a spectacular fashion...
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For once, I'm gonna do what I have never done before I think. Involve myself in "a political discussion around Outpost 2 and the community around it".
- So, the question some will be asking I guess, why I have never done that before ?
- The answer is simple. All I want to do, is to play Outpost 2, nothing more nothing less. I care little for who is sceming against who, which server the IRC and forums are located on and who are admins.. you name the rest of whats going on here of politics.
(I know this will probably piss off quite a few people, but this is the truth. This is the same with most the older players/WON players aswell. Most of them were older than me back then, which means they are 25+ now. We don't care about the things I mentioned before. All we want is a "Nice/Good/Comfortable" place to play OP2.. I'll get back to this later)
Before I continue this post, I'll say a few things which can help you understand my point of view:
Ever since I got OP2 back in 97, I have loved it from first sight(or first try if you want). Early 98, I started playing online on WON, and continued to play there until it was finally shut down. I started out as a complete n00b, but slowly mastered the build orders/research orders and games played at mark 300-500.
After about 1 year or so, I started my training under Falcon (Later <PÅ>Falcon, which some of you might know). Now focusing on micro rushes and quick games (mostly Pie Chart) I spent a long time practicing this for endless amounts of games, getting the timing just so, both buildings and research, until I finally mastered this aswell. Having beaten Falcon a couple games in a row, there wasn't much more to learn about rushes, and I moved on again.
I continued to play the best players for some time, until I was the best player on WON myself, staying on top for about half a year or so. As I started to play a bit less, I also shifted focus from the fast rushes, to a more laid back style of playing, dragging the games out.
- Basicly what I'm saying is: I know I don't have the hand-eye coordination now that I did back then, but my head is still full of knowledge of OP2, lots which seemingly have been forgotten in this community. Having played this game more extensively than most players currently here, my point of view or comments are mostly based on hard learned facts, rather than being the rambling of the average n00b(my opinion of a n00b at least).
Now, I'll move on to adress the topic discussed here:
As Horus states in his initial post, I also share the view that this community is slowly declining. For my part, I feel this has been happening over a long time rather than being a new found fenomena.
The biggest problem in my view, is the community's everlasting problem of keeping new members, and getting the old players back. (Talking on a more permanent basis here) Newcomers are coming in almost every day, post a short introduction, post a couple of questions and after recieving their answers, disappear forever. As a community, we need another way of getting them involved, getting them to play. (The regular "Hi, Welcome. Please come IRC to play" method hasn't worked for years.. perhaps time to work on another way to attract people to this game)
From other games I've played over long periods of time, experience shows me most of them stay alive because of a core of longtime experts who has played the game for years and refuse to stop playing it. With the exception of myself, this community has failed to attract even 1 single of the old, respected players from WON. We were at least 20-50 regular players(Who had played OP2 for years) when WON shut down, and quite a few has dropped by here, but none of the has stayed for a longer amount of time. (Exception here might be Pablo ?)
To be honest, this community is simply not very attractive to the old players:
- BM/AM's are frequently broken
- Players frequently quits games
In addition the IRC is a very "closed" community. With this I mean (very) little is done to make newcomers feel welcome. Be that old players or n00bs. The "regulars" often dominate the chat, with internal jokes (often taken from young or foreign players on the forums..), otherwise just replying they don't want to play a game because they are not in the mood, don't want to play with hamachi or just don't reply at all (alternatively answer questions with irrelevant remarks). Drop in 4-5 times and always experiencing this isn't gonna motivate people.
Concerning old WON players, they were often used to play this game quite differently from how OP2 is played nowadays, in addition to being rusty. Using Riledo as an example here, the answer isn't always to gang up on IRC and call down the old player who might have come onto IRC full of new found enthusiasm for the game, and told people he used to be good.
(Some of those old players are the reason OP2 didn't die off before WON was finally shut down. This is of course another story I'll let rest now)
If you are on IRC,
- Be polite (Even though others might be rude/act silly)
- If someone ask a question, answer it properly, without any silly remarks
- If a newcomer enters, make an effort of trying to make them feel welcomed
Just my opinion at least..
As for the community itself, I think we share alot of great ideas, and many of the ongoing projects are great. However as many have mentioned, our efforts go in way too many directions. The answer to increasing this community isn't to get a OP3 ready in 2-5 years, we have to focus on the small things that can enhance our gaming experience here an now.. or as soon as possible.
- Get the game-client project going (Won copy or whatever it is called)
- Make a few more colony games
Make the game interesting here and now, and worry about the big projects later. (Saying this without ever involving myself, but it's just how I feel about this)
Someone mentioned how well the community was working over at KevinAr18's site.
In my opinion this was because:
- The community had 1-2 main projects going. The OP3 storyline everyone agreed to, and were working with improving.
- The community there were led by players who had played OP2 for years. Something I believe led to members of that community respecting the admins more. (Since admins were already highly respected/well known members in the WON community)
To round of this long post, I'll add in my greatest concern.
Like I explained earlier, I have played this game extensively. I believe I can make use of a wide array of strategies in this game, and of course counteract most of them. However, this is not the case with (many?) players today.
Many players post proposed changes to the game when they run into difficulties. To mention a few: Thors being overpowered, panther speed and mass missiles.
My prayer to those that can change this game. Please don't tamper any more with it. The solutions to these things are already located within the game, there is no need to manipulate the game.
- Thors are not overpowered. (Acid > Thors) <-- please stop arguing on this point
- Panthers are good for early defense. If need speed go for lynx, if you need firepower, use Tigers. Panthers fill their designed role perfectly. And if your pointing a finger to the Tiger Speed upgrade.. Congrats, this is what I mean tampering with the game has unseen effects. Any map with Tiger speed upgrade research, or added wreckages has rendered the Panther useless. Blame yourself!
- Mass missiling is not a problem in the original game itself. If you fight your opponent on equal footing, how on earth do you provide him the time/ore to build 10-15 spaceports.. ? Again if your manipulating the game to suit yourself, be on the lookout for unknown consequences. (Be that AM setting or changing the Ore settings on a map)
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Excellent contribution, Highlander. These are really valuable thoughts that I think everyone should consider. I especially agree with your views on how the community should treat projects, game changes (especially) and behavior on IRC. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
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Definitely agree with that post.
The whole thing with modifying the game to make it easier / overcome some "problem" people are having is something I've always argued against. For this reason, I argued adamantly against putting gameplay modifications into the game (I know 1.3.3 had some minor changes in sheets.vol, I think some of them were HP / workers of CCs or Trade Centers, among others). I took it into my own hands to be sure 1.3.4 wouldn't "ship" with any sheets.vol modifications, and thus the only modifications to sheets.vol in OP2 1.3.4 are:
- Uncompressed (allows people to see and modify the game rules if they really want to)
- Minor changes that don't affect game play (in the building / vehicles / weapons / space.txt files, the "owner type" for all buildable objects is set to B, which allows specific missions to "unlock" the item for a team it was typically not available to. This doesn't affect any of the standard missions or techtrees though, only makes it possible for custom missions to change the game rules if they want to).
As for the whole AM / BM thing, one possible way of dealing with that is to put controls in the code itself. For example, someone could code an LR mission to auto destroy all structures built before a certain mark (well, excepting power and mine structures, of course). Likewise would be possible with the AM, lockout weapons technologies until a certain mark (this could be accomplished with a trigger and a special techtree) or prevent weapons from leaving the player's base area (explode them or something).
Of course, neither of these would work directly with old missions, you would have to code these features into new missions.
The other option (which isn't as easy) would be to have a selector for BM / AM in the game settings window, and the game would enforce it on all missions if the checkbox was checked. This would be a bit more involved than the other fixes though, but would work on any map.
Players quitting because a game didn't go their way is something I have real problems with. I was in a game where someone quit because another player self destructed a scout near their base at the start of the game.
Same thing goes if you are losing. Let the game end, don't quit because "you know the outcome." Seems like poor sportsmanship to me.
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As for the remarks on IRC, I have seen a few of these. I think from now on, if I keep seeing useless / irrelevant / stupid / demeaning comments from people when new people ask a question, I'll just kick ban them for a short time. If it keeps happening, I'll kickban them longer. They might not like this, but I'm sure the newcomer likes their idiotic comments much less.
This isn't a problem for most people, but I know there are a couple of people out there (you know who you are) which this directly applies to.
Saying you "don't want to follow the rules because they're stupid" doesn't hold much water either. By using IRC, you agree to follow the rules (the MOTD says this). If you don't like the rules, don't connect to IRC.
The other issue like you said already, people who don't want to play via Hamachi. Personally I'm tired of hearing it being called Hamas***ti or whatever people want to call it. True, it's not the greatest for some people, but its the best option that we have right now if you can't play any other way.
If you are the one complaining about Hamachi, why not stop complaining and start trying to get it to work. I don't buy the whole crap about "it screws with my network configuration", it doesn't make port forwarding magically stop working. Reinstall Hamachi or XP if you are able to, Hamachi works on XP fine for most people.
Going on with users being treated badly, I have seen lots of cases where people jump on another player because they have a slow connection, and tell them all sorts of nasty things.
Sure, it might be frustrating at times or not what you're used to, but give them the courtesy of letting them play with you. Sometimes a slow connection is something they can't help (only ISP in the area is dialup, can't afford broadband, other users in the building slowing network access, parents, not them, decide what ISP they are using).
So yes, if you're going to treat other users like crap or make them feel less welcome for stupid reasons like these, start expecting a ban. Call us the spam nazis of OPU or whatever you want, but we are starting to get really irritated by the current rash of bad behavior on IRC. Remember also when you treat newcomers like the lowest scum on earth, be ready for it to come back around to you again, either from one player, a group of players, or the ops / admins.
So the bottom line is: if you can't treat other users nicely, either shape up or get out. If you can't do either, then we will show you the way out of the chat room / forums.
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After taking time to read everything. I will begin by saying that I am sorry for flaming back at Horus and Frezza...This said, we really need to put those conflict aside for once. People in general are beeing mean to each other and like highlander said op2 elder player are just discusted by this attitude.
Furthermore, We need to know specific things that have to be done. You want them to be done? Well post for it somewhere. I just have been fired from myjob because of a scedule problem so now I am full of free time and I will gladly help because this will make me learn something. Ranting on the other hand do not make me brighter.
So, what can I do for you? for a better future.
Ps to all member: Put aside your political strugle. UNITED WE STAND! ALONE WE DIE!
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As for the whole AM / BM thing, one possible way of dealing with that is to put controls in the code itself. For example, someone could code an LR mission to auto destroy all structures built before a certain mark (well, excepting power and mine structures, of course). Likewise would be possible with the AM, lockout weapons technologies until a certain mark (this could be accomplished with a trigger and a special techtree) or prevent weapons from leaving the player's base area (explode them or something).
Yeah, that would be nice. And that would show that the people here code like they do the milk!
The other issue like you said already, people who don't want to play via Hamachi. Personally I'm tired of hearing it being called Hamas***ti or whatever people want to call it. True, it's not the greatest for some people, but its the best option that we have right now if you can't play any other way.
If you are the one complaining about Hamachi, why not stop complaining and start trying to get it to work. I don't buy the whole crap about "it screws with my network configuration", it doesn't make port forwarding magically stop working. Reinstall Hamachi or XP if you are able to, Hamachi works on XP fine for most people.
Yeah, that's annyoing when a guy wants to play, but refuses at all ways to use hamachi. I remember when that happened one time... I keept telling them to use Ham...
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let me add an annoying thing.
If you can end the game and your in there base dont try to f***ing prolong it so you can bring in novas because you have a nova fetish or to destroy the rest of the base then the CC. Just Destroy the CC and end the game so that person can go do what ever or join in another game. No need to sit around and wait on you.
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Well Freeza, I dont think thats quite right either. I agree that once your enemy is crippled, final victory should come swiftly but I dont think applying general rules (or even suggesting them) to how a game should be ended is right either.
If Nova fetish is your thing, whatever. Just get it over with.
But making your nearly defeated enemy wait another few seconds isnt a good reason NOT to do it. Remember, we want people to feel comfortable here and not like theyre suffocated with odd unspoken rules that they may never learn until they screw up.
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Just having some consideration for the other player and just ending the game with out having to do the whole OMG I PWNED YOU WITH NOVAS SO BAD. When the base is already crippled. Its one thing to nova/flare a base that is intact and fuction and you sneak them in and kill all. But its another to have them wait for you to get novas down there when you have units that could have already finish the job.
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Or a more extreme example where they have to shoot at the base with lasers and kill every building and unit saving the CC for last.
Just seems kinda dumb.
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The other thing I saw lately is the usual stuff about missiling. It seems lately, that anytime players use missiles everyone jumps on them for that.
Like Highlander basically said already, take control of the game situation. Prevent them from building a spaceport, and then you don't have to worry about the missiles.
If you set a high Attack Mark like 1000 then don't be surprised if someone builds 10 spaceports. Just don't jump on the player because they used missiles (and don't complain that the missile is a 'cheat' or that it needs to be removed from the game or anything like that).
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Last nights game was interesting Both sides in a 3v3 were using missiles atleast 4 each. The missiles were launched in a moderate speed so there not end to end missiles coming down from the heavens. But after the game both sides were blaming each other. One side is well you had missiles so i needed more. The other side had missiles to protect and help with attacks. All the missiling that happened in that game happened the way it should have. It wasnt like 6 missiles all launched at once and spread out over a base. before adlair left he launched his missiles on arklons base but he did that as a part gift lol he had to go. Its one thing to have multipul missiles its another to launch them end on end.
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Well this is getting into more of the "sportsmanship" area and I think it requires 2 things:
1) People need to grow up. When you lose, take it like a man and thank the winner for a good game. If you know youre dead and its only a matter of waiting til the nova lynx gets to your cc, have some light discussion about the game and maybe talk about how to strengthen your strategy for next time.
2) Treat others how you want to be treated in a game. Dont get known for being "the guy who always spams people til they quit the game" and then people will be less likely to do it to your or someone else out of spite.
As a third rule, I think nobody should leave the game angry. If someone does something to piss you off, ignore it and keep playing. If the game is over and youre angry because you lost, get over it and try to discuss how to do better next time. Dont piss people off until/so they leave the game. People should not finish a match pissed at someone. Everyone should be saying "gg" in IRC when theyre done.
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Discuss the rule before starting the game is vital. I, for example, play no rule because it is how the game is I live with it. In many other RTS game people don't bother to live until their last breath...you know when your death you can stay, but sometimes you can leave (thus make more time to make another game and is more manner).
About missile like X said (dont remember sorry). If they got missile. It is because of A) rule (then dont complain...like X said) or B) you are just too passive and let him expand everywhere. You might have been everytime on minority so you couldn't act...well practice your building order and your macro skill so you can one day change the pressure to the other side.
I am gladly offering for basic micro/macro tutoring to be more efficient in combat for those who are REALLY new to the game (just drop a PM). Playing on a high level in warcraft 3 I know how rts work a bit.
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that is what i am saying tho they have no units no vec facs just end the game with killing the CC dont make people wait so you can flare/nova them.
As for the missiles they usually occure in the long mark game. nothing you can do about it even more so when you have a AM mark lol. not all games are rush games.
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Just check out one of the old clan websites. Most of them had rules set down for their members on how to behave and interact within the game..
Gathered a few points from a few old clan sites:
- No breaking mark or rules of engagement.
- Treat all individual players with respect (even rivals).
- Grounds for quitting:
2.1. Situation that must be attended to.
2.2. Majority vote allowing you to quit.
2.3. Opponent refuses to destroy your Command Center in a bleak game.
Nobody likes quitters. 2.3 is referring to players who are wasting other player's time. Though this is a judgement call, any complaints of unnecessary quitting will be investigated.
- Absolutely no 'trash talking.'
- Members associated with another clan who is at war will not display hostilities with Birds of Prey in the title or on their profile.
- Never quit a game even if you are losing.
This includes taking down your Command Center with a ConVec.
his includes destroying your Command Center with your own weapons.
This includes self destructing your vehicles next to your own Command Center in a attempt to blow it up.
- Be a good sport.
Do not insult someone because they beat you.
Do not insult someone because they are better than you.
Do not insult someone because they used a "cheep" shot to kill you e.g. your opponent used a starflare to destroy your Advanced Lab.
- Don't drop anyone before 60 seconds (there is a window that appears giving the time since contact was lost and also displays who dropped who despite what people may think).
- Don't swear excessively online.
Some mild swearing is allowed but don't get carried away.
- No quitting a game unless the game has been approved to be restarted. Never are you to quit a game unless the other persons in the game agree to a restart.
- No breaking mark or rules of engagement. This is to eliminate all the foul, dishonorable, and unfair players out there. The player that is head of the game is the captain...You must abide by all his/her rules. We want to be an organization who if welcomed by all for good gaming.
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I think those are some rules we should consider for OPU. Although, breeding rule nazis isnt something we want to do either. Again, this is all based on good-faith sportsmanship.
Responsibility doesnt just mean watching your actions, but the actions of others - even people you call your friends. We need to keep an eye on eachother and check them (and ourselves) when they slip. This will keep everyone on good terms and hopefully garner more trust. So if someone sends you a PM calling you on a slip of protocol, dont get pissed. Just take the advice with the knowledge youll probably end up doing someone else the same service. I think we need to establish a sense of trust at OPU that has been waning.
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I wonder why it was forbid to leave when you KNEW that you were doomed...this is IMO aa waste of time :huh: care to explain a bit the why please? :blush:
Otherwise those rules make sence
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I dont like that approved quitting. because when it comes down to it most people that want to flare the base will just be like we all vote no you cant. if some one has to go they dont need to wait for a vote. If I am going to quit ill do it I wont wait for a damn vote its just a game.
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I wonder why it was forbid to leave when you KNEW that you were doomed...this is IMO aa waste of time :huh: care to explain a bit the why please? :blush:
Let's say you have played a 1 hour long, really intense and even game, vs a good player.
As final stroke of one of your attacks, you manage to destroy something of importance, that spells "doom" in the long run for your opponent. So instead of giving you a fight for it, or try to make the best of it, your opponent just says: "sorry gotta [Insert worst excuse ever]. Bye." Then just quits the game and goes offline on IRC.
I think that would make most people kinda pissed, since they really earned that win.
On a sidenote, those rules shouldn't be too hard to abide by, since the mjority of the thousands of players who have ever played OP2, managed to do it before you. (Mod's could only be called in if people didn't behave or abide by the official rules of WON)
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yeah i think its more or less an honor system type thing. if youre cool and play fair, people will play you. if not people will think you suck and stop playing with you.
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Last time I checked, CK9 hasnt patched OP2 or done anything for the VPN. If the programer's service is so poor, why not fix the problems yourself?
As I said before, if I could I would. I have tried teaching myself the programming languages before, and I still don't know s*** about programming. However, through the luck of coincidence, a programming class is required for my major, which I will be taking this spring if everything works out right.
Comments like these that help nobody. "PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES!" Do you think anyone would want to code for someone if they told them that?
Who said anything about people coding for me? The phrase served it's purpose: it caught people's attention. We got a 1 man team working on 1 OP3 project, and a team that isn't telling us s*** on another. If they worked together on a single project, each person working specifically on what they are best at and getting it done, we'd have a working demo at the least by now. (I always thought knux and garret should have been working together on a project rather than workingon two different ones, but knux left before I got up the balls to start speaking up in here).
and don't get me wrong horus, I have a lot of respect for you. I may think you act like an absolute ass at times, but you have shown (in my eyes at least) that you know what needsto be done and are willing to take the needed steps yourself if neccessary.
(and yes, I know, the convo has moved pass this, but I've been bussy for a while and am not about to let it go by without sharing my views)