Outpost Universe Forums
Projects & Development => GORF => Online Chat => Topic started by: BlackBox on October 09, 2006, 03:04:04 PM
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I've noticed a few things going on in our community lately which are very out of taste. I wanted to bring this to people's attention, and I hope that they'll remember to use proper network etiquette when online.
First of all, it seems there is constantly some sort of heated / obnoxious discussion going on in #outpost2, anything ranging from politics / religious debates (and potentially flaming) to /me battles and other immature things.
This is something many of us have real issues over sometimes, especially when it involves politics / religion. The IRC rules themselves state that political and religious-natured discussions should take place elsewhere (like in the lobby).
There are a couple reasons for this rule:
1- The primary purpose of #Outpost2 is simply what the name of the channel is, that is, for playing OP2. Many people who come looking for a game could care less about religion / political discussion. (or don't care to hear about either discussion at any time). Personally I fall into that second category, the American media has enough bias in it to make anyone want to scream :(
2- Players are from many different countries. As a result some people could care less about how you think George Bush is a moron, or how much you like him. Put it this way: I'm sure a lot of American players could care less about British / Canadian / German / (wherever) politics.
And finally the biggest problem is how these discussions, once they get started, tend to pre-empt anything else. So, for example, someone who joins in the midst of a conversation is essentially drowned out by the discussion and ends up leaving without getting to play a game.
As for /me battles and such - if you really want to, do it in the lobby or some other channel. #outpost2 is not the place for it. It really irritates a lot of people.
Same goes for nick changing to stupid names or trading names with people. If this happens and an IRCop catches you, you will have your nick forcefully changed back. It's pointless, just keep the same nick you always use. You don't need to trade your nickname with other people -- it just creates confusion for someone who wasn't paying attention to the whole thing.
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Second thing is, how some people treat new users to our community who are perfectly fine users (you don't see them acting immature or unusual themselves). Some of the posts I've seen are simply downright nasty. (For example, some of the threads regarding OP1). If they seem to be repeating something over and over (which yes, can be exasperating) remember that you don't know their whole situation. For example, English might not be their first language so they may have trouble understanding directions or comments. Getting angry at the person is not going to help their situation, more likely they may just leave and never come back.
Similar things have happened when people ask for help with routers (or they get ridiculed in the open because they don't know what a router is). Keep in mind that not everyone who comes here is going to be unusually knowledgable about computers or the Internet, thus you must have patience with them.
Likewise, I've seen some comments on IRC which aren't that great either. If someone new asks a question, they should get an honest, serious response instead of some immature or foolish response. (To bring attention to one specific case, if you aren't sure what I mean, someone new came into the IRC channel and asked "Who exactly develops / maintains the game?" and the response was "Satan.")
People are on edge enough when they come into a community full of people they don't know anything about, whether in cyberspace or in real life. Everyone needs to do their best to give them the respect that they deserve as new users.
If you want to joke around or say foolish things to people, do so only after you've gotten to know them. And don't go about it in such a way that is immature or just plain annoying.
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Finally, some stuff regarding Hamachi and OP2 in general.
If, when you play, someone calls a build / attack mark (which often happens in LR games), don't complain -- just honor it. If you continually break bm / am people are going to be less likely to play with you.
Don't quit for trivial reasons. One of the games I played was on CCF and it involved someone quitting because another player SD'ed a scout near their base. When you do this it doesn't make a point -- it just makes you look really, really immature.
Don't argue because a game didn't go your way or because a player broke the rules. I always tell people that the best therapy is to just play another game of OP2, whether it be with the same people or different people. You don't need to start a war on IRC because someone 'cheated' or attacked an ally or did whatever they did to fall out of favor with the other players.
Finally, don't attempt to forcefully drop a player by blocking them on Hamachi. If we hear about people doing this, they will probably get banned. This is something that needs to stop happening. It is bad form, people will not want to play with it
Also, more of an informational note than anything -- The Hamachi networks have been changed to opu.net / opu.net_1 / opu.net_2 / opu.net_3. We are in the process of installing a bot on these networks to automatically drop users who sit in the networks offline. (and a system to allow multiple people to evict 'online' users who have been idling in the network for hours on end).
Please keep in mind that you must right click the network title and select 'leave network' when you are done with Hamachi. If you simply close the Hamachi client you will not be removed from the network and you will occupy space in the network (keep in mind there is a 16 user limit per network, including yourself and the OPUBot).
If you have questions, comments, or anything else to add feel free to post it.
If everyone is aware of these problems I've just listed, and takes steps to eliminate them, we will make OPU a much better place to be online.
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Clearly the most neutral ''bad behavior'' post I have ever seen. Clear, mature, aim no one... You are doing a incredible job and the way you express your non-agreement is the good one. I think the message will pass clearly.
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na there will always be some one that will fight to the death no matter what is said or what rules there are. Its only to be expected
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It's true what freeza said, there will be always some people who WANT and WILL to break rules, just to show who is the "MAN".
lol, if someone thinks that he is older and smarter. But he spams, picks on others, why don't he just stop with the s*** what he is doing, to prove than that he is a smart, not an immature kid.
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I know but if he love to break rulez the said person could be hum expulsed ..I mean he wouldn't care less about it and we would recover once again peace. Even tho I think most people if not all know what is common sence and acceptable behavior.
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Its good that hacker posted that. Its hopefully the beginning of a better (more friendly) outpost universe.
Sure, some people never understand. But if the majority acts mature, that would be great.
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I couldn't keep my mouth shut on this reply. If you realy think that people will listen to rules, they will but not for too long.
We both know that humans by nature are curious and stupid.
There will come some bone*** who doesn't know the rules, he will affect someone who will want to be like him "cool" (yeah right) and the rules will crumble.
I know that will happen, you know that will happen, we all know what is going to happen than.
Most of picking on others came from other form the admins, moderators and else. (now you just say me you never seen them do that. we all know that is happening )
They just close an good idea, becuse they think it's not too right. Topics are for talking, for making bad ideas to better.
All of them just sit and talk how to behave (not all of them), while they are dis-behaving.
Rules won't work on these guys.
THAT IS JUST NOT FAIR. They think that they are law, they are not.
It's immature to protect someone who hurting you, others and himself. (i know it from experience)
For writng this someone will hate me, someone will agree with this.
I don't want any new rules, no new bots or stuff like that, i just want to have an normal communication, nice behaving.
This is not an demand, this is a PLEASE. :(
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Well, after reading what Savant posted:
I'm not trying to direct my statement to just a few people. I'm trying to tell everyone (and yes, this includes the mods, admins, as well as myself). I know that we (mods / admins) don't follow all of the rules all of the time (nor are we in the place to tell everyone how to behave when we don't do it ourselves).
I think we could come up with some reasonable solutions to that. Some of the ideas that have come up in the past include:
- Anonymous complaint button on the forums that can be used to send a message about a user at any time if you feel they broke the rules. In the case of a mod / admin it gets sent to all the other mods and admins for review (but not the person which the complaint was filed against)
Maybe in the case of a moderator with excessive complaints, the system could automatically limit their powers for a period of time.
- Periodic anonymous survey on the mods and admins, you rate them on a 10 scale and leave comments or something like that.
- Rotating mods / admins -- people in good standing with the members of the community (are here often and are well liked, few complaints) would get swapped into the mod / admin team for a certain period of time. This could be done fairly automatically if things like surveys were in place that the computer could automatically tabulate.
- Some "board" or "Parliament" of people who have the final say on things that happen. Either put into position via votes / surveys or automatically generated (i.e. people who are at / above a certain activity level over a period of time are put into a list and randomly selected).
Or perhaps none of this is necessary. Maybe if all of us start agreeing to follow all these guidelines, we won't have to deal with people "breaking rules" or anything else.
What do you think?
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It's a nice solution.
No rules, the power of people is a nice solution, but a note, when turning someones power down, it shouldn't be based on a complain on 1 person only.
Someone can use it in wrong way.
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Sorry to here about this.
And please use the lobby or another channel for long chats or whatevea please.
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I dont like your suggestion hacker. Nice idea, but it just wont work. Yes admins and mods 'get away with things' and are hypocritical about certain behavioural issues.
While not being around the past 2 months I havn't witnessesed any of this. However might I say that the current admins are doing an excellent job. Most of the work done is behind the scenes, there maybe some people in the community who are able to take on the job of admin, i.e have the ability to do so, but I do not know of them. I do know that the current admins are very dedicated to what they do have years of experience.
On the other note. Rolling mod's what were you thinking? Once you give someone mod's you can't take them away just because their time limit is up!
You want mod's / op's? be proactive and do something that makes you worthy of being given mod's.
We also have to know and trust you of course!
If you have a problem with someone (including mods + admins) and its valid and you have already asked/ tried to resolve it privately then if they are non admin talk to an admin about it. If they are admin/mod then talk to another admin/mod. we mods would love to borrow the modstick off CK9 for use on an admin (j/k :P )
If its more general, i.e. your concerned with the level of fowl language on IRC by a number of people then post on the forum.
Does this make sense, I'm sure I'm just mixing together a few different threads from over the years and a bit of comen sence!
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I read about admins a lot. Did you know that the only admins of this Community are hacker and Leviathan? The others belong to the opu-team and are mostly global mods on the forums.
And I find the behaviour of our admins ok.
And its not so much about bad language, swearing etc. Its about people not respecting each other. I have often enough seen people insulting others, talking behind their backs.
I guess, some people here have to do that to feel 'cool', to get some sort of satisfaction, because they can't behave like that in real life. Or they think that they are super intelligent and thus have the right to. For them the internet is a lawless place, that noone cares about, thats just there to make fun of everyone and everything. That is simply not true.
And then comes the argument, people shall go, get a life. I can only say for myself that life is strenuous enough. I'm here because this Community was once peaceful and because I want to get my mind off the problems of life once a day.
And don't say it's impossbile before we tryed. Don't even think its impossible. If it doesn't work in other communities, doesn't mean it won't here. Some people still have to learn that OPU is different.
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That's the point I was trying to make right there. We shouldn't have to deal with people who won't respect each other or who are making comments behind people's backs.
This is a simple request -- if everyone complied with it, we wouldn't have half the problems we seem to have.
As for the mods and admins being accountable, (and those ideas) the one I would be most in favor with is something that allows people to make anonymous complaints. The other ones have come up over the years, being proposed by various people, and I do feel some of them are quite flawed. (I.e. we haven't really reached the point where we need to elect people -- have we?)
Anyway, if you are having issues or problems with the administration / moderation of OPU, please, please, please let us know. Better to confront us if you are having a problem with us rather than letting it go.
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Admin or mod any one in the opu team has the power to stop any "unwanted activity" There isnt much separation between the two. How ever just because Levi and hacker are both admins doesnt mean there the only ones that can help. Galatic is the God around these parts because he is the host he can help just about every one. Horus can help people he knows things. Me well I cant help all that much but I carry a admin stick and will use it on people. Mez hmm well he hasnt been around alot so I dont know if he knows any thing.
Not every one that is a Global mod on the forums is on the "OPU team" (i hate that name). Betaray and CK9 are two examples of this.
Personally i think restricting the #outpost2 chan to just OP2 related chat would just be bad and just kill of the chan. Just keep it to basic chit chat and all major discussions go in the lobby. Now if hacker already said that i dont care dont correct me.
Yes if your having a problem with the admin step up and speak or sit down and take it. Its that simple.
I AM FREEZA MASTER OF OPU|BOT hehehe
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Same goes for nick changing to stupid names or trading names with people.
I guess this means goodbye to Betasandwich. :(
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I think imposing too many rules is generally bad for the community. I understand (and often suggest) creating generalized blanket rules to cover our butts so that we can more easily deal with undesireables and etcetera, but rolling mods and a suggestion box? Written rules against using nicknames? I think thats going a bit far. We have to keep in mind that the spirit in which rules are written is not always the way they are taken and everyone sees things differently. Its impossible to transmit the "feeling" of the community to a new user and laying out dozens of rules in order to form a sort of analog will just overwhelm and confuse people. General rules against saying/doing bad things are fine but when we start getting into more specifically telling people what to say, most people would simply click cancel on their user registration. People can say stupid things and theres nothing wrong with stupid nicknames :P
Furthermore, OPU is not a democracy. We should not be voting for anyone. The people in charge are the ones who run the show and anyone they want to help in their admin duties are subject to their wishes. End of story. If the community doesnt like it, then leave. We will never come to the point that we *need* to elect anyone to anything. I know what youre trying to instill, hacker but I just dont think elections will work. It sounds really bad but I hope you understand being an admin, that giving too much power to the community opens too many doors for corruption and waste. All it would take is one new user without a clue and a chip on his shouler to demand a mod be dethroned or some lackey pushing the admins to give a volitile user mod rights. A few users piece together a conspiracy from rumors and suddenly OPU has a petition on their hands. Once we let the community think theyre in charge instead of you and Freeza, all hell would break loose. The fact is, the average person at OPU is not suited to administer anything. Giving any and all of them the right to vote and generally make a huge stink is opening a napalm floodgate.
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dm-horus, if OPU is not suppose to be a democracy we might just aswell give it back to xfir.
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admin close topic or it will go out of hand.
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Same goes for nick changing to stupid names or trading names with people.
I guess this means goodbye to Betasandwich. :(
I'm not really talking about that, that's fine since you can still tell who it is (it's obviously Betaray). And obviously he uses it when he is eating a sandwich :P
Variations of your normal nick are perfectly fine, like for denoting an 'away' status.
What I refer to is utterly useless nickchanges caused by things like this:
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(User_A having a conversation with User_B)
<User_A> Haha, you da man!
* User_B is now known as The_Man
<The_Man> BWA HA HA !
..
And it goes on, sometimes involving many people changing their nick to names like that (and it becomes impossible to tell who they are without reading through the logs and looking at their hostname).
Sometimes it gets very bad and people totally trade nicks, i.e:
* User_A is now known as RARARA
* User_B is now known as User_A
* RARARA is now known as User_B
I don't really see the point in doing stuff like this. It just confuses people who happen to join in the midst of it, or who haven't been paying attention.
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As for the whole imposing rules thing, I'm not saying we should start making new rules all of a sudden to cover specific things. This post is, how should I put it, more of a general "etiquette" type of thing -- I've been using IRC before I came to OPU, and some of the nasty things that I've seen certain people do here, I have yet to see elsewhere.
So this post is really less of a demand, and more of a request.
However, at the same time, it doesn't mean we are going to keep telling people "please please don't do that" if we see them, for example, treating new people badly, or any of the other things I talked about in the first post, if they keep doing this sort of bad behavior they can still expect to get punished for it (i.e. a kick from #outpost2).
Not that everything I outlined is even enforceable anyways: for example, it's not like the admins are able to prevent people from playing a certain way in a specific game of OP2 (that's out of everyone's control except the people who are playing the game).
I also believe we have a special responsibility as OPU: We support a series of games, which for all intents and purposes elsewhere on the Internet, is dead. VU barely acknowledges its existence. If we disappear, the Outpost series will very likely disappear as well, and there will no longer be much of anything to look at on the internet for the game.
So, I wrote this post not to be some sort of "rules fascist" (and I apologize if you took it that way, I didn't at all intend it to sound like that), but I was hoping that exposing some of this nasty behavior that seems to have been sneaking in through the back door might cause every single one of us to take a look at ourselves and make sure we aren't the ones perpetrating these behaviors.
And I'll be honest, after I posted this I have seen a few improvements at least in the way new people are getting treated. There's still quite a ways to come though. Keep up the good work!
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Regarding the whole democracy / mod issues sort of thing:
I don't really think that a whole "election" process is really needed or even desirable at the moment (I can see the potential problems that could arise). I just put that down in the other post because I can remember hearing the idea from someone else at some point in time.
Personally the only of the items I posted above that I would really be completely interested in are the anonymous complaint / survey forms.
However, at the same time, I still think we need to do something to get more people involved in decision making and administrative processes (of the community). Enough that everyone gets a fair say, but not so much where one user could easily "take over" or create an issue that few others would be in favor of.
If you can think of any good plan to carry this out, please don't hesitate to post it.
As for the whole comments about "admins / mods aren't doing their job" (at least what I'm hearing after reading Savant's post), if you feel that a mod or admin isn't doing their job, speak up! I, and others, are willing to listen if you feel something is going wrong.
It always seems that people wait until one of these types of topics / posts and then they suddenly decide to say something.
I do think that if we came up with a good way to get everyone involved in the decision making process I think we would see general complaints drop to a fraction of what they are now.
Anyway, those are my (few? not so much :P) words for now.
-- op2hacker
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Its also better to stick to one nick any way and have your alt nick something simular.
i mean why in the f*** would you change your name from SuperBee to Yabadaba. What ever nick you registered with you should use simple and clean. this doesnt mean you should register another nick just so you can use it.
This place isnt a democracy and Xfir doesnt care about op2 so having him around wouldnt help a damn thing.
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This place isnt a democracy and Xfir doesnt care about op2 so having him around wouldnt help a damn thing.
Yeah, apparently only because you and horus said so.
@hacker, what is the point in getting community members to come with ideas when their shot down each and every time by Freeza and horus???
I can go digging through old posts to back this up, if they haven't "magically" vanished :rolleyes:
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Sl0vi thats bordering on paranoia. The fact is we want ideas. Good ideas. Not to say there have been no good ones, but seriously guys just because something is your wet dream doesnt mean its that way for everybody else. If youre willing to post your ideas in public you HAVE to be able to take criticism. If freeza and I decide to be Roger Ebert about your ideas thats nothing to take personally. Just chill.
Plus, our taking OPU away from xfir was totally undemocratic and thats my point. Once we make OPU a democracy, the admins are no longer allowed to do what has to be done when the time comes. Everything would be put to committee and generally overcomplicated. Thats what I mean by being anti-democracy for OPU. The fact is, not everyone knows all sides and explaining situations to the general community as the admins know it would take forever. If the admins say Xfir is bad for the community (for example), you should take it with a grain of salt that theyre thinking about the best interests of OPU. Why would an admin make a covert grab for control of something he already controls? I think some recent discussions on irc and forum activity are making people paranoid and creating conspiracies where they do not exist. There is no gestapo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo) at OPU. 99.99999% of what goes on behind the scenes is administrative. Clerical. Janitorial. There is no cloak and dagger masonic society steering OPU behind the scenes.
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The posts in Genesis sub forums are handled by the genesis team so if some thing is missing take it up with them the admin and global mods have taken a bare minimun in that part of the forums. And as for other parts of the forums they were either archived or they were removed because of people flaming.
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OPU doesn't have to be democratic in order to be more friendly. But it musn't be a dictatorship nor an Oligarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy) either.
When someone says "opu is not a democrazy" it sounds like "we don't care about what others say". You aren't giving people the feeling that they are wanted and respected at opu. And that's a contradictory to our (hopefully) common goal: help Outpost survive.
The posts in Genesis sub forums are handled by the genesis team so if some thing is missing take it up with them the admin and global mods have taken a bare minimun in that part of the forums.
Yes, if a post is missing that wasn't obvisously against our rules, you should contact us.
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lol, the xfir incident sure wasn't democratic. However everything after that was supposed to be. You can try to justify anti-democracy as much as you like, but if it's not the thing our admins are supporting, then they are liars.
There is nothing wrong with criticism, but when you guys get 100% of the say and it is always a "NO!" it's gone way beyond criticism.
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Slovi no When i post about a idea i think it bad i am there as a normal poster if people cant see that then to god damn bad. If i dont like it then ill say it. I am pretty god damn sure horus is the same way. the fact that we are global mods makes no difference to us and we are not using that as leverage to killing off ideas. CK9 and Betaray are also mods so what about them or did you over look that fact and go strait for the people that do s*** for just IRC. Well Betaray and CK9 arent Oped for no damn reason.
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Sl0vi, youre taking things much too personally. I know things are a bit different at OPU because the global mods are active in the forums and on IRC, but we are not going to censor ourselves just so you can feel safe by thinking we are janitorial robots working in the background. we live and play here too and we have a right to speak our minds. if we think an idea is bad then we say it. if youre unwilling to come to terms with the fact that not everything you come up with is the pure genious you assume it is, maybe you should contemplate whether or not to post it in a public forum to begin with. just because i think an idea sucks and freeza happens to think it sucks as well doesnt mean we are covertly teaming up behind the scenes to shut down poor sl0vi. its just our opinion, and we hold it knowing full well that you can go ahead with your ideas as much as you like. if you notice, we have never said "We are admins and we will prevent this from ever happening you bast." Just because we dont like an idea doesnt mean we will ever prevent it from happening. I can guarantee that nothing freeza or I have ever done was in an effort to prevent one of your ideas becoming reality. You have to be able to take criticism and expecting never to see 100% negative response is naive and foolish. The simple fact is, you dont know everything sl0vi. Just because we do something you dont like doesnt mean it was done specifically for that effect.
And if you look hard enough and read between the lines enough you will always see what you want to see.
Freeza and I are easy targets for you to call "corruption!" on because we are open with our opinions.
And you should realize that none of the global mods have to justify anything. I think at this point, freeza and I are indulging you in this argument.
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Freeza, why should I go after Ck9 and Betaray? I'm not arguing with mods just for the sake of arguing with mods. I'm arguing with you and horus because I completely disagree with some of your points of view. Which I have as much right to do, as you have the right to have your points of view.
And I won't go back one step back about that OPU is supposed to be a democracy, because that is what hacker and levi promised. Being a democracy does not mean endless polls, and the admin's not being allowed to do what they have to do. It means that everybody gets their fair say on what ever decisions are made.
horus, ridiculing me does not strengthen your point.
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Hmm, i see just like Hacker told, that alredy conversations are getting better, there is less flaming and insultion! Keep it up everybody!
BUT i noticed something:
When someone invites someone in their channel this usually happens:
A: Welcome to my channel!
B: Did you reg it?
A: Why?
B: Becuse i say it's best do!
A: I won't.
B: ...
*: B: Register #buladadada channel
B: Now it's my turn...
* kicks: B has kicked A (Why didn't you reg this channel? Dumb**)
Outpost2 channel
A is now a @ of channel
B doesn't have a mod
B: Sucker!
A: ...
A: My turn....
*:Kicks: A has kicked B (low life gipsy scum)!
C: I hate B!
*: Bans: C: has banned B (he won't come here anymore)
lol, that is sad.
I think something like that happend alredy.
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I dont know what kinda decisions your talking about. If the server was beening hacked do we have to wait for a bunch of people to agree to do some thing while the server is comprimised? Or if some one post a completely offtopic spam fest on a thread do we have to wait for every one to say its alright?
Thing is I dont really care what Levi and Hacker Promised That is the past it didnt happen and you should hold a damn grudge over it because it didnt turn out like you thought it would/should. I will not talk about Xfir and how all that s*** went down either its done and over with and we dont need to beat a dead horse.
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Sorry to be critical
You said you think thats what happend?
or do you actually know thats what happend?
I'm only being picky because you could use you statement as the basis for a whole new argument!
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Savant: Well, that's what registration of channels is for. If you don't want someone else to register a channel (and take it over), then register it when you create it.
If you don't register your own channel that's basically saying that you don't care if someone attempts to take it over (and indeed, there will be no protection from the server if the channel is not registered).
We won't really do much about this either, it is your responsibility to register the channel if you don't want anyone to be able to take it over. (Registration doesn't entail some complex process like on Quakenet for example, you had to have X users in the channel in order to register it. You can register a channel with no one else in it if you want).
The only time the IRCops are going to step in to "save" someone's channel is if that channel was in use for an extended length of time without being registered. (But even then, we will ask: why was the channel not registered?)
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Sl0vi: Personally I'd prefer that more people get involved in the decision making process. However, what do you think is the most efficient / best way for that to happen? (or, in other words, should it be an explicit poll / questionnaire? or should we just post a proposal as a topic and let people respond to it?)
I see no problem with that. I agree that outright "elections," official "ballots," and such would just be slow and get very little done.
And yes, let's keep the accusations/ridicule to a minimum. (referring to the post by horus) It's not getting anything useful done.
By the way, if anyone wants to propose something themselves or otherwise wants a change in some rule, feel free to post about it (that's what the discussion / suggestion forums are for).
Furthermore, perhaps one of them should be renamed? (There's two with very similar names).
Tell us how exactly you want to implement something so that everyone can have their say. (As the current "way" we're doing things probably isn't the greatest, and it definitely doesn't get everyone involved).
Personally I think something like a forum to discuss proposals / ideas is probably good and general enough to get stuff done. We shouldn't get involved in such formalities as elections / "OPU Parliament/Congress" / etc.
Edit: Here's an example that I just posted. Why not start getting more people involved in decisions now?
http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.ph...=ST&f=35&t=3260 (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?act=ST&f=35&t=3260)
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@Freeza, why do you always use the most extreme examples as an argument against any type of democracy. Ask yourself what the mods are suppose to do in those cases.
@hacker, that's exactly what I mean. Allow people to propose and discuss changes without shoving it down their throats that OPU is not a democracy. We don't need a fancy election system, you can easily figure out what people want simply by allowing them to talk about it, we're not that big of a community after all.
To give you a bad example:
The irc server change discussion. The discussion was peaceful and friendly with alot of input about what people wanted, until horus came in and told everyone how they were not suppose to discuss it and that the changes were going to happen whether they liked it or not. Telling people to shut up and that their opinion doesn't matter won't make this community any friendlier, and will discourage people from giving any input.
P.S. the horse is far from dead, there are still people that don't take much part in these forums because of the xfir incident.
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Because the extreme examples are what the admins and/or mods should ultimatly take care of with out input from any one. Simple thing is another story becuase there isnt as much of a time constraint on them and things could be discussed or at least people told about it. The Thing i dont like about all the discussion about things that should be done is that the discussions might never stop. Some people will try to take advantage of this and try to push in on some of the more admin only things. Like behind the sences forum work or server stuff.