Outpost Universe Forums

Projects & Development => Inactive Projects => GORF => Outpost 3: Genesis => Topic started by: leeor_net on August 25, 2005, 10:27:55 PM

Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 25, 2005, 10:27:55 PM
Ok... I talked to stormy and apparantly Hacker and Freeza ended up looking through the member section of the website... what for I guess I'll get an explanation for soon enough, but here goes:

We have decided to go ahead with a 3D engine which is currently working very well. I have started preliminary coding for a 3D RTS engine and I have every intention of completing it.

We have thus far nearly completed the Story Outline and will be calling on OPU to write the actual chapters.

A Design document is in the works and now has a basic framework. This will be passed around between the developers for a few rounds before we let everyone here know what we want to do (this way we can eliminate clutter in the doc and can organize our thoughts properly). After it's out, we'll be looking forward to suggestions and whatnot.

We have also started some preliminary content work so that I can test the engine as it progresses (and also so that we don't have nearly as much to do as the game moves forward).

There have been several requests for pics (looks at Freeza and Hacker)... And here are some:

http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/screenshots/ss_01.jpg
Screenshot of the actual engine in-the-works. This is an older version of the engine. Much has happened since.

http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/plymouth/light_tower_02.jpg
http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/plymouth/mhd_02.jpg
http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/eden/advanced_lab_01.jpg
http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/eden/cc_01.jpg
http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/eden/comm_storage_01.jpg

Various structures. The Light Tower is the only structure with a completed skin. The Advanced Lab has a skin template. The others still need to be skinned.


EDIT: Removed 'img' tags and left the original links instead. Unfortunately I no longer have these images.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on August 25, 2005, 10:29:21 PM
ME like :).  Thank you for some thing
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 25, 2005, 10:34:24 PM
There's definatly a lot more than this but I think this should keep the masses taken aback for awhile...  B)  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on August 25, 2005, 10:35:45 PM
Thats all i am really asking for just what its going to look like. because i can care less about stories and movies lol.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on August 25, 2005, 10:38:41 PM
Note: most of the textures for like the sky were done quickly and are in NO WAY the final textures :P.  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on August 25, 2005, 10:43:15 PM
its kinda scary because it looks like another sierra game i used to play.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 26, 2005, 12:23:20 AM
Heh... well, the sky is on another planet whos atmosphere is more venus-like. Actually, I've done some 'research' into other 3D RTS games and I'm wondering how I'm going to handle the sky exactly. I may keep it because some of the in-game 'cinematics' will actually be using the engine itself rather than full-motion videos (it's easier and more cost-effective for our purposes. We don't exactly have the resources that Blizzard or Microsoft has).

Anyway, a lot's been done, a lot still needs to be done.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on August 26, 2005, 08:52:09 AM
The reason I happened to find this I'll explain now:

I was told a while ago that someone had stored porn on their OPU web space. So I had to search every single account we've created for people to check for porn, and tell the offending person to remove it before I suspended their account (as you might have guessed, we don't allow porn on hosted accounts).

Well since I had to search every account for it, I stumbled across these. I was pretty impressed, but wondered, why didn't you guys release it sooner?

Apparently Freeza stumbled across it a couple days before when he was searching the web for OP2-related content.

Anyway: Yes I did find the porn. I'm not going to say who it was (for obvious reasons), all I'll say is that the problem has now been resolved.

Couple suggestions on the models:

Why not use more polys? design a high poly and low poly version of each model and let people pick in game (though I'm sure you've probably already thought of it)

The light tower looks nice. I might suggest, the texture on the sides looks a little unusual in that engine screenshot, like concrete texture or something.. (maybe it's just the lighting and angle of looking at it)

Besides that, good work so far!
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 26, 2005, 10:51:42 AM
Generally for 3D RTS engines, the models will be relatively low-poly. Most of the detail will come from the skins and materials applied to the model, not intricate detial work in the model itself.

The concrete look you mentioned is accurate. It was due to a few things: 1) I was using a point/point/point type filter which doesn't allow textures to be smoothed by the filter and 2) there was no lighting in the scene so everything was bland and muted. The texture filtering is controlled in the material script used for the skinning of the model. I forgot to turn off the point/point/point filtering.

As far as lighting is concerned, the 'light' portion of the model as well as the blow 'glowy' stuff on the base now are very bright (As I would imagine they should be) and will soon be able to emit light (light entities can be horribly difficult to create via a script).

Now, back to the reasoning behind low-polys in RTS engines. The polycount for the models is low for two reasons. One, RTS games produce large numbers of moveable units in addition to the terrain, effects, structures, etc. In a crowded scene, the user may be rendering up to 50 or 60 thousand polygons on screen at once. This is a very big problem for users with graphics cards older than 2003 (which I would guess about 75% of the users on OPU are older. in fact, stormy was... :D ) Severe slow-downs and lag result and it just wouldn't be fun.

The engine itself actually generates lower-polygon models based on the users settings (for instance, graphic detail being low, medium or high). Also, as units and models move further away from the camera, a new Level Of Detail (LOD) kicks in and the model no longer needs as many polygons to represent what it is.

Also, just a note (and I think Freeza would like this), the colors for multiplayer games were... limited. OP3:GENESIS will allow the user to define custom colors by changing the Red, Green and Blue (RGB) components in their Player Setup Screen. This allows users to create any color they want, be it light blue, dark blue, black, white or puke green. Just thought it would be a nice touch.

I will post more information as it becomes available and we (the developers) deem it appropriate. So I guess, stay tuned. We have a lot coming! :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on August 26, 2005, 11:36:42 AM
Sounds good so far.

Of all things, you should make the engine as open as possible, maybe even to the point where people can plug in new functionality by creating a library and putting it in the dir.

So for example, people can create new game types, etc.

Another thing I'm hoping: Will it be crossplatform?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Voyager7456 on August 26, 2005, 12:11:00 PM
This looks pretty sick guys! Glad to see an OP3 with some progress done on it! :D

Keep up the good work!  (thumbsup)  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on August 26, 2005, 03:53:15 PM
Oh and I think it will be cross-compatible.. but I don't know how the engine works coding-wise... other than it uses X,Y,and Z coordinates to place the vertices in the world and attach the mesh/skin  :lol:. I do know that we will make it easy to mod though :P. For you guys who might wanna make new gametypes!!

And of course... There will be the 'traditional' Outpost 2 'birds-eye-view' :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 27, 2005, 12:46:47 AM
Actually, stormy, the engine will not use the OP2 Birds Eye View (BEV). It will use a camera position similar to Age of Mythology/WarCraft III. However, the engine will allow for some camera movement (e.g., rotations, zooming in/out, etc.)

The graphics engine as it stands right now is completely cross-platform compatible (in fact, I'm about 99% sure it'll also work on the PlayStation 2 and xBox).

However, the rest of the engine will more likely be Win32 only. I am familiar with and very capable with DirectX programming. I do not run other Operating Systems so I don't know how to program anything else except with the SDL Library (which I know supports a lot of systems). I will be using DirectX coding for the Input and Sound systems of OP3.

However, the engine is designed with modular plug-in support. The graphics engine is plug-in based and currently supports DirectX 7, DirectX 9 and OpenGL Refresh engines. I plan on keeping with this scheme and making the rest of the engine plug-in based (e.g., sound plug-ins, input plug-ins, game logic plug-ins, etc.)

Also, my work with the Quake2 and Quake3Arena engines has made me familiar with the idea of making OP3 MODS extremely easy to deploy without changing the original engine's code or game-logic code. Through the use of what I will call the GameX86.DLL file, the games' logic can be controlled entirely through this one file. The 'Logic Module' contains all of the code relating to units, vehicles, structures, tech trees, AI, physics rules, etc. It must follow a few rules to conform to the OP3 Engine Loading routines but otherwise the 'Modder' is free to do whatever he wants.

All MODS will be contained in directory other than DATA (DATA being the default game code and content). All new content and game code will be contained in other directories (such as PRAXIS or LEEOR_NET'S MOD). When the game starts, it will scan all sub directories of the root for new game modules. In the game's starting menu, the user will be able to choose which MOD to load.

Also, as most mods rely on the original games' content, any content that is not found in the MOD directory will be search for in the default directory (DATA). If it's not found there then the game will return an error.

===================================================

As far as an open engine, you bet. I have all intentions of leaving the game's source code open and free for non-commercial use. I don't think I'll allow commercial use of the engine without a liscence but I have yet to determine exactly how I would work that.

Either way, I want the engine to remain open so that when we release the beta's, other users of the community can download the source and make any necessary changes.

===================================================

Sound/Input plug-ins aren't going to so much be handled like emulators or WinAmp will handle it. Essentially the game starts, reads a configuration file and goes ahead and loads whatever plug-ins are defined. Sound/Input plug-ins can't run side-by-side so they need to be complete or the game may not operate correctly. Also, I don't know if I'll develop the engine to allow for run-time switching of the plug-ins but you never know how it'll end up. I link everything into the game engine right now at run-time so it may be fairly easy to just shut down the current module to open the new one. Oh well, we'll see how it all develops.

===================================================

Game content is fairly straightforward to create. I've developed a few tools already to make it easy for me to create new Overlay/Material scripts as well as generate several LOD's into a single model mesh file.

Also, I've started work on a mapper for the game simply so I have an easy way to generate a new map. It's not doing anything yet except loading in the layer scripts and generating new material scripts for the mapping layers.

As far as content creation, the members area of the Genesis website will have information about creating all of the content for the games. I have a lot of work to do before any of that even shows up in that section and before any of that information becomes publicly available but I can assure you that it will become publicly available.

===================================================

Wow, that's one hell of a post! :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 28, 2005, 05:51:27 AM
New image file: Plymouth Agridome:

http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/plymouth/agridome_03.jpg

Please note that this skin has taken me about 10 minutes to do. It's way late for me I've had no sleep in like 2 days and I just wanted something to throw up. Enjoy.


EDIT: Removed 'img' tags and left the original links instead. Unfortunately I no longer have these images.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 28, 2005, 07:47:57 PM
Updated version of the Agridome. The skin is finished. Here's the shot:

http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/plymouth/agridome_03.jpg

compared to:

http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/plymouth/agridome_04.jpg

The whole structure now looks like it's been in the elements for a long time. The 'dirty glass' is actually foliage, not dirt (although there is some there). I'm very eager to stick this in the game because I have bump-maps and everything ready to go.


EDIT: Removed 'img' tags and left the original links instead. Unfortunately I no longer have these images.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on August 28, 2005, 08:07:59 PM
O.O oh my that looks very nice
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Ezekel on August 29, 2005, 05:57:48 AM
is it me, or does anyone get reminded (even a lil) of urban assault when looking at these pics?


also, i think you should me a new thread in this area that tells ppl about genesis.

like how its 3D and how its still an RTS and not an FPS (or a C&Crenegade style FPS)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Death_Knight69 on August 29, 2005, 08:01:57 AM
Let me just say, it's been over 5 years and I finally found out about OPU. It's been so long since I played op online(when it first came out), and now I find out that ppl are getting together to make OP:U.  It's almost made me cream my pants!! Way to go guys!!
BTW, the models look sweet. Keep up the great work!
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zigzagjoe on August 29, 2005, 08:19:22 AM
nice models...but would those said plugs also apply to the display? so that you could recompile, put a new plug and have it run on linux?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on August 29, 2005, 08:36:49 AM
Depends how well the game is 'equipped' for porting to other OSes.

At the very least if you don't want to port the game, make it easy to do in the future. This would mean all the system calls should be done thru some sort of wrapper class (i.e. to open a file, read/write, open sockets and read/write them, query time, load / unload a library etc). Most importantly all graphics/sound/input routines should be done in a similar wrapper, or in separate libraries. This includes DirectX.

Also in your network code, pick an endian and stick with it. For example little endian since it would be primarily used on Intel x86 systems.

Make sure there's an easy way to convert from one endian to another. This would work if you run everything thru an abstraction layer like I suggested above, but you have to do some extra stuff to handle things like C structs (use a schema or something that tells the code converting the endian what fields in the struct exist, and what ones have to be converted).

If you do everything through some sort of abstraction layer, and use no system dependent calls or anything outside of that layer, porting the game would be extremely easy.

Other than that; keep up the good work!
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 29, 2005, 09:03:21 AM
hacker, much of what you're asking for is way more than I'm even looking at right now. First off, I'm only going to 'officially' support the Win32 versions. What other people do with the code in terms of porting is another thing and would be great but I will have nothing to do with it.

The graphics/refresh engine is ALREADY portable and will not need to have any changes made to it. It's as simple as obtaining the binaries for the appropriate environments (e.g., Linux, BeOS, MacOS, etc.)

Second, it would appear that some people don't realize that RTS engine can be 3D and still look like the traditional RPG. I'm posting an image of Age of Mythology in game for two reasons: 1) so that people can see EXACTLY what I'm talking about. There's no First Person about it and 2) because I'm modeling the camera view as well as the keyhandling after AoM... it works very well and there's no need re-invent the wheel.

http://www.microsoft.com/games/ageofmythology/img/screens/aom_screen11.jpg
http://www.microsoft.com/games/ageofmythology/img/screens/aom_screen3.jpg

As you can see, these images are not in a First Person perspective. Outpost 3: Genesis will have a very similar, if not identicle view to this. (quick note: the shadows in AoM are just dark spots underneath units. OP3 will have the option to turn shadows off, basic, and accurate. I would be able to run the game with full graphic quality. Many people don't have the hardware I do so it becomes necessary...) {Thinkin' of you, TH300!}

As far as wrapper classes, I'm just going to code the engine the way I code it. The porting I'll leave up to someone else. I run Windows. I will probably always run windows. I refuse to acknowledge MacOS and Linux is just too different for me to make a migration at this time. So Windows it is. If you want OP3:GENESIS to run on Linux, download the code and make the necessary changes. The same goes for any other OS.

Please also note that the engine right now is far from an engine. It's just a program that starts its refresh engine, loads a few files and goes from there. Basic input allows me to move around a height-field terrain and to use the mouse to point the camera in any given direction. I can turn debug information on and off. And that's about it right now. Great for testing but far from a complete engine.

Quote
but would those said plugs also apply to the display? so that you could recompile, put a new plug and have it run on linux?
I hope I answered this. If you want Linux, you can write it.

I don't mean to sound harsh or rude but as a few know I've not slept in, quite litterally, a long long time (I'm on day 6 right now). Also, I write software as a hobby right now. I would absolutely love to write software proffesionally but I can't exactly work for EA or id or Maxis right now and OP3 isn't going to land me a big fat check so I'm only going to go so far. Yes, the code is going to be quality code that works, no it won't be incomplete and s***. But I'm only going to make sure the game works on Win32 platforms (namely XP) and that's it.

Hopefully I've cleared up some questions. If not, e-mail me (outpostmia@yahoo.com) and I'll post a new thread answering each and every one.


EDIT: Removed 'img' tags and left the original links instead. Unfortunately I no longer have these images.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on August 29, 2005, 05:13:27 PM
It would still be good to make it to where you don't have to re-code everything if someone wants to port it to MacOS or something.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on August 29, 2005, 06:52:32 PM
Yeah, that's what I'm asking. You don't have to do the actual cross-system coding; just 'insulate' the system from the program by creating some sort of abstraction layer.

E.g. if you're doing it in C++ just create a generic file reader/writer class and do ALL file operations thru this. That way, you don't have to recode all places where file operations occur in the program; just recode the file management class to port to a different OS.

If you use SDL that's easily done.. just the other parts like for sound and input, files and network would need an abstraction layer to make porting easier. (Have you considered using stuff like SDLnet and FMOD for network and sound)?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: plymoth45 on August 29, 2005, 07:18:15 PM
Guys, have a look at the EE2 graphics, they are rather good, though the game itself is lagged by AI issues.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zanco on August 29, 2005, 09:41:40 PM
I have read the suggestions you-lot made about the game coding and other stuff. The only thing I will say is not to worry and let Leeor_net do what he is planning. He is really talented worker and I think knows what he is doing. There is no need to worry about that.

Nice job ;p
Hmm I didn't think the skin would add so much details.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 29, 2005, 11:35:30 PM
Ah, I see your point about the wrapper classes. Agreed. I would rather create wrapper classes for everything so that it would be particularly easy for somebody to port. I will develop the Win32 stuff. Since it's C++, things like the File System, Input, Sound, etc. will just simply have standard interfaces that the program would use without needing to know how the internals work. If you want to port to another system, just write the new code for a different OS and let the binary file decide which one to use.

Well, that's not a particularly good explanation of what would happen, but I'm sure Hacker and a few others know what I mean. I don't plan to make it difficult to port to other systems. By all means, let's port it to other systems so that ANYBODY can play the game! I'm just going to create a base.

BTW, I finally managed to pass out earlier today and was asleep for like... I dunno... 14 hours or so... I feel much better! :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 29, 2005, 11:59:29 PM
Quote
Have you considered using stuff like SDLnet and FMOD for network and sound?

Yes. I don't like SDL at all. FMOD is a possibility. However, I've done a lot of sample programming with DirectX for sound mixers and whatnot. Chances are I'm going to create the code for the sound processing myself. If someone wants to use SDL or FMOD for input/sound in a port, they would just simply need to make the new calling conventions within the abstraction classes... simple enough.

The big reason why I don't want to use SDL is because on Win32 systems, there is a lot of potential overhead. It uses DirectX for Win32 so why wouldn't I just use DirectX myself? I don't have to go through a series of library calls or extra function calls just to call a DirectX function. I didn't like it the first time I used it I doubt I'll like it the second time I use it. Besides, DirectX has moved quite fast from the joke that it was in version 1.0 to a highly sophisticated, highly optimized HAL that works all-to-well.

Also, one note about the way the program will start (the int main() function, or rather the WinMain() function), is that it will be created for use under a Win32 environment (hence the WinMain()). This should be easy enough to change while porting because I don't think I'm going to create any win-specific stuff except for the WinMain and WndProc functions. Besides, the WinMain function will simply call the Init functions for each system (Refresh, Sound, Input, Network, Logic) and then call a GameInit function.

While I'm at it I'll just describe the way the program will start.

Basically, once the program starts, it will call up the default Refresh, Sound, Input and Network plug-ins (I love plug-ins... makes changes and updates TOOOOOO easy!). The Logic module will not be loaded until just before the actual game starts.

The user will be able to make changes to various settings like Graphic Quality, Sound Quality, Network Settings and Player Setup (color, name, colony, etc.). The user will also be able to select which GameX86.DLL file to load (the gamex86.dll file is the Logic Module... I assume that other systems will have different extensions than *.DLL so the Plug-In loaders will also be wrapped up into abstraction classes). After the player has selected the Logic module to load (by default, GAMEX86 will be loaded from the DATA directory), the game will initialize its Logic module and begin.

As the user will be able to choose different Sound/Input/Network plug-ins, these will all be loaded at run-time. The user will not have to restart the game for the new plug-in to start. If the plug-in fails to load, the default plug-in will be started. If that fails then the game will terminate and the user will be given approriate error messages.

I'd say it's a pretty fluid system with a lot of potential if I can get it to work right. It will allow for MOD's to OP3 to be developed and deployed very easily and will also make it easy for the user to to install and play new MOD's. I don't plan to do all of this myself as it would take years to complete an engine of this calibur on my own, especially since this is hobby-work. I will eventually be calling on the help of others from OPU as well as other game programming forums (such as GameDev.net) when I have the framework for the engine set up and working. So hopefully I have some really interested people looking to be part of a large project!  B)  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 30, 2005, 12:29:44 AM
Quote
Hmm I didn't think the skin would add so much details.
The skin adds almost all of the detail to a model. Plus, these images there aren't showing what the bump, specular and highlight maps will make it look like. That screenshot is not an in-game shot of the model. It's in the modeling software I use.

The Graphics engine supports what are called bump-maps (amoong other things). A bump map essentially tells the renderer how to render a texture and light it in such a way that the surface with the bump-map on it will look like it has much more detail than it actually does.

For instance, say you had a wall with a concrete texture on it. Normally, a renderer would just simply slap the texture onto the surface of the wall and that's that. While from a distance the texture may look absolutely stunning, as soon as you move up to the wall the texture becomes flat and bland.

By applying a bump-map to the concrete texture, moving up closer to the wall will make the wall look like it is actually textured rather than just having an image drawn over it.

I have compiled a short video demonstrating the use of bump maps and what they are capable of. Please note that the program rendering the image in the video is rendering this REAL-TIME and is totally useable in a real-time game (proven by the fact that I'm moving the globe around with my mouse). It's a low-res video but should get the point across. If anyone wants a hi-res video just say the word and you've got it.

You can download the movie here: http://opmia.outpostuniverse.net/download/bump_mapping.rar (http://opmia.outpostuniverse.net/download/bump_mapping.rar)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Sl0vi on August 30, 2005, 04:51:42 AM
ehm.. this simply just looks amazing!  :D

I must say you've done a great job leeor_net, and I'm definetly looking forward to seeing more of this game.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: gamerscd0 on August 30, 2005, 05:31:16 PM
nice this is a good start
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on August 30, 2005, 05:57:31 PM
Yeah, that makes sense leeor; provided all the directX / system dependent stuff is only done in the abstraction classes.

That way for example, if I wanted to port it to Linux, I'd just have to write the underlying interface to SDL or another system (maybe just access the framebuffer directly..)

Entry point isn't much of a big deal; that's a problem with any system.

Oh yeah, on code organization -- it might be nice to store the system dependent stuff in a separate directory. that way it's absolutely clear what has to be ported.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on August 30, 2005, 08:03:32 PM
Believe me, I've given a great deal of thought to the way I intend for the system to work.

As far as the abstraction classes are concenred, that's exactly the way I'll be writting them... Let's say for instance (and this is going to be a class that I write) that I had a wrapper class for File System calls (Obviously, Linux FS is different from MacOS FS is different from Win32 FS etc.). Let's look at a SaveGame for instance:

Code: [Select]
int CFileSystem::LoadGame(char* FileName)
int CFileSystem::WriteGame(char* FileName)

Simple enough. The game would just simply need to call these functions without the need to know what's in them. It just needs a file name and it returns an integer about whether it was successful or not (various returns could mean various errors like "File Locked" or "File Doesn't Exist" or whatnot). Then it's just simply a matter of writting new internals when porting.

Of course, this is an extremely simple example of what I would actually do. Chances are the LoadGame() and WriteGame() functions would be abstracted versions of the game. The file system class would probably have low-level functions like OpenFile, WriteByte and the like. The LoadGame and WriteGame functions would just simply use the lower-level functions. In fact, they may be part of a different object that uses a FileSystem object. I havn't gotten too specific with myself right now about exactly what functions I would use for various things but I'm definatly getting there.

Anway, I have some new Screenshots for everybody. You can see that the Light Tower has had some changes made to it. Certain parts are much brighter than others now. THey are actually emitting light. However, the shadowing code I still need to add. Either way they're nice, my favorite being the close-up of the Agridome! :D

=====================================================

http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/screenshots/t_screenshot_1.jpg
http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/screenshots/t_screenshot_2.jpg
http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/screenshots/t_screenshot_3.jpg
http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/images/screenshots/t_screenshot_4.jpg

In order:
===================

A few notes about the engine:

The engine Frames Per Second (FPS) has been capped at 75 (which is awesome for fully developed real-time games). Anyway, the FPS remains between 74.5 and 75 on my computer regardless of the whether it's rendering 3000 polygons or 35000 polygons. So it's working out quite well.


EDIT: Removed 'img' tags and left the original links instead. Unfortunately I no longer have these images.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 03, 2005, 12:09:42 AM
Any more thoughts about this?  :lol:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 04, 2005, 06:55:56 AM
Looking great, good work, make sure you add the screenshots to the wiki project page.

Why did you decided to start from scratch with your own engin? Did you not look at using a open source engin which has allready had a lot of work done on it? I just think your giving your self more work than is needed like you love to do? You know its coming.... have you looked at the Spring code?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 04, 2005, 01:04:02 PM
I don't remember when we decided on a new engine.. but still.. I REALLY enjoy making models... and It's not all that much work if you spread it out...  :lol:

Oh and the Spring code... we can't do that.. everyone has to have TA to run the game.. So thats why we are making our own :P
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 04, 2005, 01:34:40 PM
Actually, it comes down to a few things.

I have been wanting an excuse to create my own 3D RTS Engine for awhile now. There are several games that I want to develop and I just never found a good reason to start on any of them.

Another reason, my personal vision for the look and feel of Outpost3 requires a graphics rendering engine particularly good rendering high poly-count scenes at very high frame rates (currently, I have the throttle for OP3 set to 75 but I've achieved rates of 1800 FPS with scenes rendering 40,000 polys).

In addition, the graphics rendering is already done and that's easily the largest and most complex part of any 3D engine. It's now a matter of telling the graphics engine what to do with itself, detect input and respond appropriately and handle sound/network. Not a lot in the grand scheme of things but still quite a bit to do.

Besides, using someone else's engine doesn't always garantee that it's a good one nor does it mean that you can do what you want with it. (e.g., image a Tokamak exploding. All the way across the map you've got debris coming from it which can possibly damage your own vehicles/structures. I don't know too many RTS engines that support that sort of thing).
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 05, 2005, 07:44:42 AM
Stormy: wrong.

Leeor: Well its still more work for sure. Why reinvent the wheel? Do you realy think some other project wont be good enough for what you want? With spring or any other open souce engin you  are able to add and edit it to do whatevea you like, like adding morale, tubes, op2 stuff, tokamak exploding etc. There is a lot of support from people to help.

What program are u using to make the 3d models?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 05, 2005, 10:03:53 AM
Blender and MS3D

Edit: Why does it matter what we use.. as long as they are compatible with the engine  :rolleyes:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Hooman on September 05, 2005, 02:59:38 PM
Lev, just looking at and understand a large open source project like that is a lot of work. Nevermind editing it to suit your needs. And then you're pretty much always left wondering if you've forgotten or overlooked anything. Reusing source like that isn't as easy as you think, and reusing compiled code usually isn't as flexible as you'd like. Besides, if there is no interest in playing around with someone else's engine, then there is even less chance of a project being finished then making one yourself.
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 05, 2005, 05:30:20 PM
very nice screenshots and many good thoughts.


As for the engine - it can be more difficult to learn to use an engine that someone else made than an eninge you made yourself.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 05, 2005, 07:48:19 PM
See, Hooman and TH300 have exactly the reasons I would rather write my own engine. Granted I'm using an already-done graphics rendering engine but it's quite clear and very easy to use.

In addition, it took me easily 6 months to fully understand the Quake2 source code... and it's not particularly advanced. Again, it would probably not take nearly as long.

Also, as I had previously mentioned, I want to write an engine that is extremely capable of very high-quality graphics and allows me to easily allow the user to change the various graphics settings. While many of the people on this forum do not have extremely capable graphics hardware, I am counting on users from other communities to become interested in Outpost 3 and essentially the OUTPOST Series. These users will very likely have much newer graphics hardware and will thus expect much more from the graphics engine.

So anyway, that's one reason I am writting a new engine. There are various other reasons but I think the graphics is the biggest one.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 05, 2005, 08:48:32 PM
Well that sounds great and we all look foward to every update. Good luck and thanks for the work and input as allways.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 05, 2005, 09:10:57 PM
Um question.  Isnt this going to leave alot of people not able to play the game because they will need a good processor and or vid card.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 05, 2005, 09:43:25 PM
We are making it to where you can play with at least... a crummy GPU maybe.. But Leeor knows more on this area as he is the 'video man'  :lol:  :rolleyes:  :D

So Leeor... reply plz :P
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 06, 2005, 12:27:43 AM
Quote
Um question. Isnt this going to leave alot of people not able to play the game because they will need a good processor and or vid card.

Not at all. The idea behind the engine is to allow the user to 'tweak' the engine to his or her computer for optimal speeds. For instance, my computer, as it stands, will be able to run the game on its highest graphics settings at around 60 - 75 Frames Per Second. The Highest settings will render accurate shadows, dynamic lights and will use complex particle systems.

The lowest settings will turn off shadows alltogether (medium setting draws shadows as simply dark splotches underneath units), will reduce the polygon detail of every model down to 30% of the original polygons, no dynamic lighting will occur and will use just basic particle systems (no fancy effects and simple gravity simulation). Also, the Lowest graphical setting will not use special effects such as Vertex and Pixel Shaders (typically found in most newer games).

So anyone with a lesser graphics card will be able to run OP3. However, the better your graphics card, the better OP3 will look.

=====================================================

As a general note (and continuing on what Hooman said but with numbers) I would rather spend 4 - 5 months working on an engine that I know will do exactly what I want it to and that I know exactly how to modify it and where instead of working 4 - 5 months going through someone else's code and not being garanteed that I'll be able to achieve exactly what I want.

In addition, while it's a hefty project and will certainly take some time, I plan to use this engine for other games that I have sitting on the backburner as well as releasing the engine in a simple SDK for other users to use (with extremely easy modification abilities). I find that many free engines (especially RTS) are seriously lacking in many reguards so it just seems easier to me that I create something new that definatly works or definatly doesn't work.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 06, 2005, 11:19:35 AM
So tell me the atmosphere of this planet ,which i know you named BOB till you get a good name, its suppose to be like venus yes.  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 06, 2005, 11:33:09 AM
It's supposed to be similar, but not the same as Venus. (and for those of you who have ever watched Titan A.E, you'll know where I came up with the name!)

Anyway, so yeah, it's supposed to be similar to Venus with high concentrations of Carbon Dioxide. However, in order for some of the elements in the story to work, I'm changing the atmospheric makeup a little bit. The atmosphere is now comprised of approximatly 60% Carbon Dioxed, 30% Nitrogen and the remaining 10% is various other gasses. The thick clouds covering the planet are made of Sulfuric Acid droplets (as opposed to water droplets on Earth).

These changes were necessary for a critical component of the story, Natural Explosion Phenomena. Heh, the name sucks but it explains essentially what happens.

There are a few points in the story were naturally occuring and extremely violent explosions occur. This is due to various salt deposits (not Sodium based salt, mind you) that are uncovered due to the high wind-velocities on the planet. The atmospheric Nitrogen is bonded with other chemicals in the cloud layer form Nitric Acid which appears as a white gas. These Nitric Acid clouds roam around for awhile before they are evenly dispersed.

Sometimes these gas pockets in the air come into contact with the salt deposits on the surface of the planet. When that happens, the explosion occurs.

Nearby vehicles and structures can be destroyed or damaged. If these explosions happen to occur immediatly adjacent to a building, the only thing left will be a smoking crater.

This also adds an element of challenge to the game because the acidity of the atmosphere (being that these nitric acid pockets have been forming and dissipating for a long time) is very high. Because of the high acidity levels, units and structures will need to be constantly repaired as a result of the corrosive nature of acids. Sufficient research will remedy this problem with new structure and mobile armor which can be integrated into the original armor plating of any of the units in the game.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 06, 2005, 11:51:49 AM
haha sounds totaly great
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 06, 2005, 11:51:50 AM
haha sounds totaly great
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 06, 2005, 12:00:46 PM
Well I can see the problem with that atmosphere.  If its like venus then its nothing more then a pressure cooker.  The Green house effect.  With temps that could eventually destroy the buildings and lynx.  Well if it does have th cloud cover like venus then not one damn drop of any thing will get to the surface i dont know if a super heavy gas like neon or argon could.  Every thing would be to super heated.  Plus the constant cloud cover wouldnt allow any day light or very little light with maybe a red or orange hue.  

Expoding salt deposites i love it.  Now if you had some kind of tech/building that could remove the salt deposits from around the base thus avoiding a major disaster.  How ever to remove one deposite means another appears else where.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 06, 2005, 12:35:03 PM
I had thought that a possibility was to have a vehicle that would spray some sort of chemical to react with the salts in some way.
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 06, 2005, 02:22:03 PM
I would just like to point out that the acid on venus is in the clouds not near the surface.  The surface is so hot that it makes nothing less then a gigantic up draft of the whole planets surface.  the exploding salt is good.  But a planet like venus would have the atmospheric pressure like 100 times that of earth.  Me thinks you planet is flawed
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on September 06, 2005, 02:44:51 PM
Yeah, if it *is* a sequel, why not use a planet close to New Terra in composition ?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: instigator on September 06, 2005, 02:57:13 PM
Wow @ this thread. this is some info leak.

nah I think it sounds cool. I wouldn't want something like new terra. They were supposed to leave new terra. Its supposed to be a new world. Technology should be advanced enough to withstand an acidic world. after all we are colonizing other planets. anyway. GJ Leeor_net

EDIT: Im not sure if I have the right story line lol
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 06, 2005, 04:38:03 PM
well you dont go live in a high pressure cooker do ya.  The thing is the planets would have to be like new terra or better then that.  Because it can support human life on the outside of the buildings.  even if you have to use a low pressure enviroment suit.  

Im sorry but i am just that kind of asshole that is going to point this s*** out because it wouldnt work in real life.

And dont any of you tell me its a SCIFI THING.  Even Scifi has a base of truth in it.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 06, 2005, 11:28:15 PM
What you have to remember is that this is LIKE Venus, no ACTUALLY Venus. That also means that the pressure isn't nearly as high.

In addition, the Sulfiric Acid clouds certainly are up high... but the pockets of NITRIC ACID are not.

There wouldn't be an actual updraft. Actually, there's just a lot of wind on Venus. Although you're right about Venus... it is a Pressure Cooker. But Bob is not. Well, not like Venus is. (it would reach maybe 450 - 550 degrees ^F rather than 800 - 900 degrees ^F). So it's not quite as hostile.

Also, you're forgetting that we're no longer in our Solar System and that the star system this story takes place in will likely have elements that we know nothing of.

Do you have any suggestions that could make the 'Natural Explosions' bit work? This is what I've come up with after several hours of research into planet types and the way various materials react to one another. I'm not a scientest, after all... well, not a professional one.

And, keep in mind that while this is a game with a story highly based on scientific fact, it is fictional so things that may not work on Earth may very well work on just such a planet as bob.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 07, 2005, 02:18:21 PM
Thick clouds and high temps.  What is the size of the planet, how fast does it spin how far away from the sun is it.  If your planet has cloud cover like venus then it better be damn far from the sun.  If it uses facts then I must see the numbers.  if the size planet is that of earth or venus and has the same distance of venus or earth then I do beleive that plant would be to hot.  Not a drop of any thing would hit the ground even at the temps of your planet bob and there is no way in hell a hydrogen acid gas would ever come down from the atmosphere.  A story with scientific fact yet the game is going to be fictonal something just does not add up there.  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 07, 2005, 02:57:54 PM
o_0 Calm down Freeza!! Lol We are still in the novella outline phase..... I think coming up with dozens of facts at the moment is crazy.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 07, 2005, 03:03:51 PM
Everyone is just eager :)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 07, 2005, 03:07:22 PM
You should've seen me when I got started... lol  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 07, 2005, 05:47:53 PM
Freeza, the OUTPOST SERIES is based on scientific facts and research but still has elements of fiction. This is also what is called "Science Fiction". Star Trek is a perfect example: Dilithium Crystals used to power the Anti-Matter generators used to create the reactions necessary to produce a warp field which is used to propel a space craft faster than light. This is not something that is feasible now and probably won't be for awhile but is still believable.

Also, while Bob is Venus-like, once again, Bob is NOT VENUS. So please give me at least a little bit of a break and put aside the disbelief for a while. In addition, I never said a thing about LIQUID ACIDS. Nitric Acid is in a Gaseous form. Voila, problem solved.

And also, I asked you to come up with something better. Good luck.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 07, 2005, 05:49:44 PM
I am crazy but i am also giving you good input so things can go quicker :P
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Hooman on September 07, 2005, 05:55:48 PM
Quote
Thick clouds and high temps. What is the size of the planet, how fast does it spin how far away from the sun is it. If your planet has cloud cover like venus then it better be damn far from the sun. If it uses facts then I must see the numbers.

Sorry, but I just have to ask. What are these specs for New Terra Freeza?
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 07, 2005, 07:47:04 PM
theres fact in it so i must see fact that makes this planet not as hostile as venus when all it sounds like is venus with a slightly altered composition.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 07, 2005, 08:12:22 PM
True, but at the same time you're also seeming to be more interested in pointing out every single possible flaw than you are to come up with suggestions.

Why not just accept Bob as he is and just leave it at that? It works for me, it works for the rest of the team (as far as I know), Levi and Hooman seem to like it...

As time progresses I'll come up with a more refined version of the explosion phenomena.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on September 07, 2005, 08:43:44 PM
Nitric acid in a gaseous form... isn't really an acid anymore.

The compounds that form acids don't really become acidic until in an aqueous solution. (The water causes the ions to break apart and thus the compound's properties change).

Unless of course, you are referring to water vapor containing dissolved HNO3.

Other things with the planet: Shouldnt it be somewhat like New Terra? (This *is* a sequel after all). Maybe even allow the player to play on one of many planets.
Also, I'm sure I shouldn't have to worry about it but I hope it gets a better name than "bob." <_<

And wouldn't you want to hear our input? Sort thru the deluge of messages on your own time. It's better to take people's input than make the game the way *you* and you alone want to make it, no one's gonna want to play it. Listen to the input of others, and get a better game that way.

It sounds harsh but that is frankly the reality of things.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 07, 2005, 09:03:14 PM
Well I am talking about a Atmosphere made of thick coulds like venus, which is how i understand this planet is like.  And clouds as we know them are made up of water droplets  Thus you can have a acid in the air.  But it would only come down are rain drops.  But because of the heat of the planet caused by Greenhouse effect.  The rain drops would never even get close the the ground.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 07, 2005, 10:04:47 PM
hacker, I'm very much interested in listening to input. But, when the only input I have is "this doesn't work", I have nothing really to go from.

And you're right about the acids... hehe. Also, Bob is just a temporary name. We need a new one. ANy suggestions.

As far as the clouds, they aren't made up of water droplets like on earth. They are made up of sulfuric acid droplets which makes them extremely volatile.

I wonder though... my original though about the cause of the explosions was that pockets of some sort of gas are trapped underneath the surface of Bob. Now and then these gasses would be released which, when in contact with some chemical in the atmosphere, reacts explosivley. I think this may work better but I don't know what these 'gasses' would be and I don't know what gasses react with eachother to explode.

Also, another note, there is very high wind and extremely powerful lightning on Bob. Pretty damn hostile... :-) Everyone will soon see why we chose 'Bob' for this particular story. This one is DEFINATLY remaining a secret!
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 07, 2005, 10:28:53 PM
Chakran (Cha  Kran),  Ramsau (Ram zow),  Derf,  Seizewell (Seaze well),  Loh'won (Low ho won),  Gazallu (Ga zall u),  Opal,  Diphidia (Dip phid ia),  New Venus.  Im sure i can think up a whole s*** load of names.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Hooman on September 08, 2005, 12:43:09 AM
Actually, I don't much like the idea. I just thought Freeza's criticism was being a bit too harsh. The idea of clouds floating about the surface and reacting with exposed salts just doesn't seem to fit well with me. I mean, think about how old a planet is? If this were a common occurance, which you'd expect for it to have any impact on the game, then why haven't all these chemicals been used up over the many years of the planet's life? I know you said something about surface winds uncovering these deposits, but still, it seems like you'd have to go pretty far down by this point to reach anything that would react violently with the atmosphere. I could understand if drilling from mining released substances like this, but not from surface winds. It would also ensure these disasters happen close to some player buildings. Make them drill and unleash it upon themselves. If they don't risk it, they don't get ore and slowly starve out. Maybe even have a degree of risk associated with areas. Like when a robo surveyor scans an area, have extra details, like trapped pockets of gas, or pressure, or possible contaminants, and other harmful materials. You could then also develop techs for dealing with these areas in a safe/safer manner.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 08, 2005, 11:26:21 AM
Hooman, I think I'll use the idea that mining operations could 'puncture' pockets of some sort of voltile gas causing an explosion. In this way, the mining equipment could be the catalys.

And of course the survey data! :)

That is EXACTLY the kind if input I was hoping to get! Thanks!

However, I think it would be neat for the rare occurance of an actual explosion that happens out of nowhere. Like, just somewhere in the middle of the game field at any time a rupture could appear, the trapped gas becomes exposed to the harsh atmosphere and Boom. As Bob will probably be somewhat volcanically or tectonically active, this could be explained by ground tremors.

But are there gasses that we know of on Earth that are volatile enough to react violently with another gas to cause a full-out explosion?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 08, 2005, 11:35:26 AM
My point was with a atmosphere like venuses you wouldnt have any day and night None of the acid droplets would touch the vecs or building The heat and pressure would crush the buildings and vecs.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 08, 2005, 11:37:46 AM
Ya there are gas that can do that and there are some that may cause implosions as well the names how ever escape me.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: instigator on September 08, 2005, 12:47:38 PM
not if you have the right technology freeza... like say force fields. and if the power goes out then all of the structures will progressivly get damaged. they will become destroyed if the power doesnt come back on in short order. just an example....

 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Hooman on September 08, 2005, 02:23:06 PM
Quote
But are there gasses that we know of on Earth that are volatile enough to react violently with another gas to cause a full-out explosion?

I guess there would be a few, but it most likely won't suddenly happen now without some sort of catalyst. If such things did happen so spontaneously, I would expect the reactants to be used up already. Now I can kinda understand your desire for random disasters all over the map, which of course you do nothing to cause. It just wouldn't be Outpost without them. But I think you need some kind of event that causes these things. Certain disasters just work. Like earthquake and volcanic eruptions. What causes them is beneath the earth and not something the player sees or needs to concern themselves with really. I can't see it going any further than the simple warning system used in Outpost2. But for something like lightning to occur, you must first have the conditions of a storm arise. Maybe if you had something like lightning from a storm causing a violent explosion with surface or atmospheric substances? Then you can reasonably expect such gases or whatever to naturally build up, and stay there until some external force acts on them. It wouldn't be too unexpected for gases to be released by geological activity, but I think they'd either react as soon as they're released, or need some sort of event to cause it.

Hmm, I wonder what would happen if ligtning stuck a vortex of volatile gases?


As for chemical reactions, if you have oxygen on your planet, then any hydrocarbon could explode given an initial spark. The lighter ones would of course be gases, such as methane. Also, methane seems to be rather common, and I believe it's known to come from geological activity. (Someone else want to correct me on that?)

The only other fun reaction I can think of, is cesium and water. But I don't see how that can be worked into the game very well. The best I can think of is maybe having a dry planet with lots of cesium, but no water. Then when you arrive, you supply the water. Clean hydrogen burning Cargo Trucks anybody? :P Yeah..., maybe not. Besides, I don't think that's so much of an explosion as just a violent reaction that releases a lot of heat. But I guess that can still be plenty harmful.

Hmm, why not a slower acting disaster like that? It might give you a bit more time to react and try to reduce the damage done even after it's started.

 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 08, 2005, 02:29:03 PM
Freeza has a point. it has to be realistic.
and when any realistic explanation for the explosions can be made up, we should use that.
I hope that I don't give away too much when I say we need only ONE explosion. So the explosives won't necessarily be used up when the game begins.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 08, 2005, 04:50:46 PM
Well if you have a gas coming out of the ground that is already super hot from atmosphere the gas most likely will be under pressure because the gas itself will be hot.  Once it gets to the surface it would have to either find a ingition or have a chemical reaction with another gas.  But also if the gas is reacting with the salt what kind of salt is it.  Sodium Chloride is table salt the most basic the salt you put on your drive ways is different.  So maybe if you can find a salt and a gas that would combine in a violent reaction then i think youll have it.  

Magnesium and water Goes Boom  Phosferous and water Goes Boom  Even a M&M can explode given the right chemicals.

Oh yes dont you think having the gas come up where the mines are would be a little bad as it would disable the mines constantly.

FORCE SHIELDS you have got to be kidding me.  Seems to every ones answer to a problem as such.  all you would need is building reinforcement and heat shielding not a dumb energy shield.  

Imagine the power requirement for such a thing because you couldnt just have one.  one shield generator would have a sphere of influance.  But i dont really like the idea of a shield.  Sound to Technological so it would have to belong to Eden while Plymouth would have some camo net.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 08, 2005, 06:33:44 PM
PLEASE use your PoWEr T0oL and Punctuation!
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on September 08, 2005, 08:29:42 PM
Well, I don't think salts would be a very realistic idea.

Salts (and most ionic compounds) stay extremely stable unless dissolved in a  water solution. (Then they dissociate... the same principle is how acids form)

Gases could react with other gases at high temperatures... The high temperature and pressure could provide enough activation energy for the explosion.

As for common gases and reactive non-ionic compounds: Many, many nitrogen compounds are highly reactive. Not necessarily explosive, but they will react.

NOx gases (nitric oxide, nitrous oxide, etc) react with water vapor and other hydrocarbons to produce smog.

Maybe you could use a 'pollution' or 'toxic' aspect to reacting compounds, e.g. a smog cloud covered the solar power array, so power is going offline.

Or maybe 'waste output' from some sort of building can react with stuff in the air to create problems.

Only other things I can think of are things like oxidizers... certain compounds when exposed undergo an extremely violent oxidation reaction. However they aren't often naturally occurring. (And you'll need oxygen from somewhere)

Also consider you could use other phenomena like lightning, etc to trigger reactions.

Yeah, I think things like "force fields" would only serve to make the game boring. The technology isn't that advanced, the OP series would seem to take place in the 21st or 22nd century so..

You shouldn't have to have 'force fields' to solve your every problem.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 08, 2005, 09:47:14 PM
I skipped over reading some of the posts because I wanted to respond to Freeza about the pressures of the atmosphere.

First off, the pressures on Bob are half that of Venus. So it's not as bad.

Second, the Original OUTPOST, which is what OP2 is based on, has Venus type planets that you CAN land on and survive on. The technology that they have is able to withstand the pressures of the atmospheric gasses. Plus, all of the residential stuff is underground.

The surface structures have extremely strong armor which is what enables them to withstand the high pressures.

And, again, I want to point out that Bob is not Venus. It's not as hostile. The biggest things they have in common are the high carbon-dioxide makeup of the atmosphere and the thick sulfuric acid clouds.

As far as most of the structures are concerned, many of them may indeed need to be built without glass windows or, at the very least, extremely strong glass that is capable of withstanding such pressures. It's possible, even with our technology today. However, with our technology today and the way the world works, it would cost more than what any government would put up to build anything on the surface of Venus or anything else. Plus, it would just not make any sense.

However, as the original colonists from Earth left in approximatly 2045 - 2060 ad, I imagine that armor technology is much much better than what we've got now (look at the difference between 1945 tanks and todays tanks). So these things are feasible if you're looking almost 60 years into the future.

As far as engergy shielding is concerned, with development into ion emitters and controlled electromagnetic plane generators, they are, again, feasible. Granted they won't be anything like you see in Star Trek but they can, theoretically block out certain kinds of radiation and possibly even biological materials.

I am actually out of time so I have to cut this short.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 10, 2005, 05:38:37 PM
BOB_VIEW movie fixed and re-uploaded! It's also a lot smaller.

Anyone with WinAMP or Windows Media Player should be able to view the file... it's WMV

Anyway, here's the link:

http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net/videos/bob_menu.jpg


EDIT: Removed 'img' tags and left the original links instead. Unfortunately I no longer have these images.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 12, 2005, 12:42:47 AM
You have any info to leak on Tech or new vecs :)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 12, 2005, 02:13:51 PM
Plenty, but I'll give you this:
========================================

Enhanced EMP (E-EMP): Because of the advent of Rogues and the potential damage they can inflict on the Plymouth colony structures, the E-EMP was developed to permanently disable a vehicle by destroying the underlying microprocessor circuitry and equipment. This version of the EMP will permanently disable all electronic equipment (except structures).

Lightning Rod: The extreme power and volatility of the electrical storms on ‘Bob’ have necesitated the need for protective devices for our various structures. A new version of the primitive 'Lightning Rod' can be used to attract much of the electrical power from lightning strikes and divert it elsewhere. We can also use these lightning rods to aid in the production and storage of electrical energy as our Tokomak Reactors are always in a state of disrepair.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 12, 2005, 04:18:29 PM
Wouldnt it be easier to blow up vecs that go rouge lol
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 12, 2005, 08:23:39 PM
Um ..   :o  Don't you need to know?  :P

You'll find out soon enough  ;)  B)  :D  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 13, 2005, 05:39:24 PM
Well I would think that a vec that doesnt work right any more is bound for the scrap heap :P
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 13, 2005, 07:49:42 PM
Actually, it takes a lot less energy to disable a vehicle via EMP weapons than it is to build and generate weapons platforms.

Quote
Well I would think that a vec that doesnt work right any more is bound for the scrap heap

Um, if you blew up a vehicle you wouldn't be able to reclaim anything, would you? Frying it electronics so that it never moves again leaves everything intact so that you can reclaim everything.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 13, 2005, 09:32:18 PM
Are you telling me a land mine wouldnt work as good as a emp.  Dont forget the simple techs that are out there.  Sure there simple but very destructive.  Ya but you have to replace all the boards and stuff is it really worth it.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 13, 2005, 09:33:13 PM
Realy like the sounds of new techs :D Great stuff
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 13, 2005, 10:34:26 PM
Glad you like it Levi, there's a LOT more than there is on the forums... But that will come at a later time  :o  :P  ;)  :D  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 14, 2005, 09:18:58 AM
Quote
Are you telling me a land mine wouldnt work as good as a emp

On 'Bob', mines are the best way of collecting resources. But who said that the story revolved around a single planet?


You ask many questions and I can garantee that they will all be answered soon. The thing right now is that our Outline is in the process of a major major major overhaul for a good release. There are a few points that were brought up that allow me to help explain some of the inherent flaws with the original outline so it's going to be a short while before that gets done and released.

By the same token, however, several parts of the official design documentation are underway and will hopefully guide us in the direction toward a kick-ass game.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Eddy-B on September 14, 2005, 12:31:16 PM
Nice looking bob movie! ... it seems the planet axis is tilted, but the cloud formations are not perpendicular to that axis.
I mean to say: the planet turns from left to right, and the "clouds" go upward slowly - except for the dark "equatorial" region...   to summarise it: it looks like a really weird turning planet.. hehe  nice work  (thumbsup)  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 14, 2005, 02:35:42 PM
How many resourse tyes are there??
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 14, 2005, 11:29:04 PM
The resources will remain the same: Food, Morale, Workers, Scientists, Common, Rare. I don't think there will be any others. At least, we havn't discussed any and I don't really see a need to throw anything new in there.

Yeah, those light clouds moving upward I threw in there because it actually looked cooler that way. It's supposed to be a cloud layer higher up in the atmosphere running with a different current. I think it looks pretty neat... :)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: gamerscd0 on September 16, 2005, 04:09:04 PM
the new jet strem on bob moving the clouds up :ph34r:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 21, 2005, 07:25:48 PM
I heard some thing about a heavy ore a long time ago.  and it would be used for more advanced weapons to make them more costly to build.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 22, 2005, 07:41:11 PM
My opinion: to make a weapon more expensive increase the rare metal costs.

But we will of course think about the pros and cons of a third ore. The probability that we add it isn't zero.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 24, 2005, 04:38:54 PM
Agreed with TH300... we have all talked about the potential for a new resource (especially the fact that we're on a different planet now). However, resources may not necesesarily be something like a new kind of ore... it could be something like a specific type of gas contained within the surface of the planet that's used for a new type of weapon or to develop a faster-growing atmosphere for the Agridomes.

The possibilities are truelly endless but we still need to keep things relatively simple due to the fact that Outpost2 and Outpost3 are indeed real-time strategy games: needing to look after too many resources can potentially ruin the mood of the game.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 24, 2005, 04:55:30 PM
i think there should be a 3rd resource, population limit. like in many other rts's.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 25, 2005, 09:35:19 AM
eh, I don't like the idea of a population limit, it can make everything a little boring after a while. However, how about people die from unemployment after a period of time, because they don't have any 'credits' to spend at the agridome for food. (this is a bunch of 'novella' type info... but still)  ;) . However, some people would survive even though they are unemployed, as a friend would share food with them.


The 3rd ore, most people were calling 'Heavy Ore' is from knux's sequel i believe.

First of all, for a 3rd ore to happen, I personally would prefer to have another name than 'heavy ore' or whatever it was called; I don't want to steal any ideas from kunx or whoever made that.

The other ore could be as an armor addon to other vehicles/whatnot, and it's not really required for the building of structures, but it can be plated onto the structures/vehicles as extra armor.

Sound cool?  B)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 25, 2005, 10:34:26 AM
well i think there should be upgrades for your units, but unlike in other games, when you upgrade a wep to level 1 you have to bring the units to the garage to give the upgrade to the weps. all units built after u have researshed wep level 1 would cost more and come built with the upgrade. this shouldnt require a 3rd ore.

and wen i say pop limit i mean that you have one robo cmd center or whatevea, or maybe 1 worker at the cmd center can only control like 20 units at once, like in broodwar you must have overlords/suppy depos to have more units. same in aoe with houses.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 25, 2005, 01:40:09 PM
The original Outpost used Robot CC's to control every robot in the game. But it could only work with 10 robots at a time. Any other robots, if not assigned to a Robot CC would sit idle in a warehouse somewhere.

This might be a good idea but I think 10 is a little limiting in a game like Outpost.

So maybe 20 or 25 would be a good limit for this.

Also, I don't think that another ore would work really for this game. It really does add just too much in terms of necessary resources to collect. Three types of mines and smelters is a little bit of over kill.

However, other resources, such as various gas refineries to collect gas from the gas pockets under the surface of the planet is feasible. As the gas is extremely volitile when exposed to the atmospheric gasses (kind of like methane or propane), using that for a projectile weapons which releases clouds of the gas and then having an on-board catalyst (such as a thor's hammer type weapon or maybe even a laser device) can set off a large explosion similar to the Star Flare's or SuperNova's do (except that the firing vehicle would not be destroyed unless too close to the target).

A lot can really be done with this but I really don't think that adding another ore resource would be very helpful.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 25, 2005, 04:15:20 PM
A population (= unit) limit is a good idea. We can anyway not have the player build infinite vehicles. To limit the vec count with robot-CCs would work. That would also prevent mass-battles.

Another ressource is only really acceptable if it doesn't give the player who has it too much advantage. This way every player can decide whether to gather this ressource or not. That doubles the count of equal strategies.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on September 25, 2005, 04:22:27 PM
You should have options to turn on / off the pop limit.

On a side note, the whole game should be very customizable -- all game rules should be able to be tweaked or shut off by the user.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 25, 2005, 10:14:15 PM
That's one thing I've been trying to say but most people turned me down.. Thanks Hacker  :P  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 26, 2005, 09:29:35 AM
Quote
eh, I don't like the idea of a population limit, it can make everything a little boring after a while. However, how about people die from unemployment after a period of time, because they don't have any 'credits' to spend at the agridome for food. (this is a bunch of 'novella' type info... but still)  ;) . However, some people would survive even though they are unemployed, as a friend would share food with them.
how can you be so sure that Money exists in the Outpost world?

Quote
On a side note, the whole game should be very customizable -- all game rules should be able to be tweaked or shut off by the user.
Customizability is in General good, but we have to take care that none of the possible settings outbalances the game too much.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 26, 2005, 11:39:33 AM
Well, that's the thing. In the Multiplayer aspect, it will end up working a lot like, dare I say, Age of Empires. You can set various thing (like fog of war and full map view). You can also turn on and off certain technologies, disasters, the like.

As far as a population limit, I guess if you mean like the standard of 200 units max, that works well enough for me. Actually, it may be a necessary evil. But, just like in AoE, you can set it to 50, 75, 100, 150 and 200. Also, if people have good enough hardware in their computers, they can turn off the population limit alltogether (but again, you're going to need REALLY good hardware for this! Remember, it's 3D and there's going to be a LOT of geometry to render!).

If by "Game Rules" you mean various engine settings than you've got it (including customizable keyboard/mouse operation). The idea is to make a very flexible engine.

If by "Game Rules" you mean making changes to the way the game operates, well... that won't be so customizable in-game. The way to change that is to create a 'MOD' to the game using the provided 'Logic Module' SDK. Simply compile the new Logic Module DLL (or however it works on other systems), put it in a new directory, start the game and load the MOD (from the MOD menu). That's really the only way to truely customize the game's logic, add new units, structures, resources, tech's, etc.

As a side note, the way I envision OP3's engine to work is as a new game but taking the lessons learned from OP2 as well as learning from the success of the Age of Empires and WarCraft series and incorporating all of these various aspects of RTS gaming into one, clean robust package. I hope that makes sense.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 26, 2005, 02:23:37 PM
Cant wait :P !

as for population limit there is a overall population limit which is how many units/buildings etc you can have. but in aoe games you have houses and each gives you more unit limit. so an equlivent for the game would be good
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: coolzero on September 26, 2005, 03:12:30 PM
but there is a deaper reason in aoe that there is a pop limit cous ifyou go over 300 orsomething you can realy make the game lag  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 27, 2005, 09:51:03 AM
Exactly. That's why AOE has a max of 200

I will probably be setting a max of 200 which can be increased via command line parameters.

The houses in AOE allowed for I think 10 more units to be built. Also, the Supply Depot's in StarCraft did the same thing.... so I figure if Robot CC's could take care of up to ... I dunno... prolly 20 units (because there are other factors in the game like scientists and workers that you need to operate the Robot CC's)... that would work.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 27, 2005, 11:30:31 AM
So your going to make the RCC actually worth some thing then.  It seems logical that there computers even tho powerful savants that have rootamentary emotions. would have there limits as well
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 27, 2005, 02:47:38 PM
maybe have it so u have to assign another worker to the rcc if u want to build more units. so when its built u have 1 worker there and can have 25 units maybe. and the command center gives like 10 also. if u want to have more than 35 units u gotta assign another worker at the rcc as aposed to building a new rcc. tho.. maybe each rcc has a limit of a few workers so u do have to build more like in other games.

what you think?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 27, 2005, 04:33:44 PM
Quote
maybe have it so u have to assign another worker to the rcc if u want to build more units. so when its built u have 1 worker there and can have 25 units maybe. and the command center gives like 10 also. if u want to have more than 35 units u gotta assign another worker at the rcc as aposed to building a new rcc. tho.. maybe each rcc has a limit of a few workers so u do have to build more like in other games.

what you think?
I like this idea. Otherwise too much ore will be spent on RCCs and they'll probably take up too much plae in narrow base locations. However - to find the right balance between cost and use of a higher unit-limit will be a task for when most of the game engine is finish, not now.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: BlackBox on September 27, 2005, 04:46:18 PM
Sounds good.

Speaking of buildings, there should be other buildings that get put to better use. like the Trade center, Observatory, etc.

Also, an interesting idea: You should be able to self destruct things like tokamaks. Useful as a last ditch defense. (The EMP blast from it)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 27, 2005, 05:48:42 PM
Quote
Sounds good.

Speaking of buildings, there should be other buildings that get put to better use. like the Trade center, Observatory, etc.
The TradeCenter is quite useful in multiplayer-team-games. What do you expect? Something like the Marketplace in AoE? I'm not sure if that would fit in the Outpost world.
As for the Observatory, I don't know yet.

Quote
Also, an interesting idea: You should be able to self destruct things like tokamaks. Useful as a last ditch defense. (The EMP blast from it)
That makes me think of a new strategy:

the tokamak-rush: rush in the enemy's base and build a tokamak, then let it explode. Maybe combine it with the Earthworker-rush™ or just send in a few lynxes afterwards.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 27, 2005, 07:25:28 PM
well first i wasent sure if they would put miniflares in the tok's to SD them.

and about trade and market thing. you have to think how far colonys would be seprated away. like there may be pockets of high ore land where colonys would be built, so the colonys would be far away. so transport may happen between them, but what for? and for transport- cargo trucks, maybe a smaller cargo truck, which is faster. and in op1 the tech level is much higher than of op2 and they have train like vec's in it. two far away colonys may build a tube between them with fast transport.

multiplayer options?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 28, 2005, 03:59:47 AM
the observatory needs a tractor beam to drop meteors on plymouth scum lol
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on September 28, 2005, 07:01:10 AM
Quote
well first i wasent sure if they would put miniflares in the tok's to SD them.
Miniflares in the toks would be wasted. All you need to sd them is a reactor malfunction.

Quote
and about trade and market thing. you have to think how far colonys would be seprated away. like there may be pockets of high ore land where colonys would be built, so the colonys would be far away. so transport may happen between them, but what for? and for transport- cargo trucks, maybe a smaller cargo truck, which is faster. and in op1 the tech level is much higher than of op2 and they have train like vec's in it. two far away colonys may build a tube between them with fast transport.
Technically everything could be transported through tubes, even the ore to the smelters. In my opinion that would make it too simple, but maybe thats just me. If at all, this technology should only be available at the end of the TechTree and tubes should be easier to destroy, so that the player has to actually take care of long tube connections between Colonys.
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 28, 2005, 04:34:40 PM
How about larger bigger tubes for ore transport.  you know in the story it didnt sound like there was to much room in the tubes.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zigzagjoe on September 29, 2005, 08:54:51 AM
in the story, tho, they did transfer ore thru the tubes. just your regular everyday tubes.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on September 29, 2005, 07:56:01 PM
it just sounds more logical that a larger tube would be better for ore then a tiny tube.  Ore and Food are the life you would think the arteries would be (larger?)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on September 30, 2005, 08:03:47 AM
they could still be small. they just have to be big enough to fit tracks for train type vecs to move up and down them i would think. and they dont have to be that big. but that would be the fastest way to move resources around the colonys. faster that just plain tunnels.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on September 30, 2005, 08:49:22 AM
Wow... I forgot AGAIN to hit the submit button!

Anyway, stormy had made an interesting note about the tubes in OP2: They appear to be half underground. This would certainly explain the change in the look from the first game. OP1's tube system was huge. The tube could easily fit... well, not cargo trucks, but anyone who's ever worked or been in a warehouse would know what a hi-loading fork-lift would look like. They would probably use something like that to move resources if they even needed to do so within the colony. Most ores and whatnot are moved around by the cargo trucks (in OP1, the cargo trucks moved invisibly so you didn't really know where they were at any given time but you could set routes and you would need to have the trucks move between the Smelter, Mine and Storage Tanks for resources to effectively be moved around.

I think doing it this way in OP3 would add an unneccessary level of complexity.

However, I think we'll go with Stormy's notion of the tub system from OP2: They are indeed partially underground. This helps to shield colonists moving through them from harmfull radiation and also helps to reduce the potential for wall and structure breaches (because most of the pressure exerted on the tube's structure is contained by the ground so you've got just the top which is reinforced as is (wires, pipes, etc.).
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zigzagjoe on September 30, 2005, 08:51:54 AM
yeah, they are mostly underground. check out the novella; you may be able to get some detail from it.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on September 30, 2005, 11:39:31 PM
Ok then, Tubes are pretty much decided on, halfway Underground.

Anything else we should discuss?  :lol:
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 01, 2005, 12:44:11 AM
ok then how about a max flow tube that is bigger for a research and the earth worker builds but cost more common and a little bit of rare :P
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 01, 2005, 01:17:36 AM
That's actually not a bad idea... backbone tubes... kinda like in large LAN's...  :D You've got the various Ethernet connections which all connect to the backbone line (usually linking up various servers and other majoer bits of equipment).

Or, maybe a better analogy, the Artery Tubes... Hmm... maybe they could even keep that name. Makes sense, eh? Or maybe they could just be called arteries for short. Oh well. Either way, it's still a good idea. Should probably be expensive to build... likreally expensive to build but has signifigant boosts to various things (like research times maybe?). Should probably need to have a direct connection to the CC (e.g. Arteries can't connect from a CC to a Lab to and Advanced Lab. You'd need to instead create one artery from the CC to the Lab and then a second Artery from the CC to the Adv Lab.) There's got to be some limits on that sort of thing.

Hehe... picture it... a base with a CC in the center of it with all sorts of arteries spidering out with the normal tubes connecting the rest of the structures at the outskirts together. Heehee... I like it...  (thumbsup)  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 01, 2005, 06:10:10 AM
I don't see why a connection from cc to a Lab would boost research. There are connections that make more sense, e.g. Spaceport to Adv.Lab for faster building of Starship-modules, or Std.Lab to Adv.Lab for faster research, or residence to recreation facility/forum to increase the moral boost.

And yea - these Artery tubes should be expensive.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 01, 2005, 12:25:32 PM
That's the idea of a specialized tube. But it's still a raw idea.

Artery tubes would be much larger and much more expensive to build. I guess the idea would he the abilities for the labs or whatnot to have direct access to Sacants or whatnot. Although connecting vital structures to Labs/Adv Labs to boost production might work.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 01, 2005, 01:48:37 PM
I dont see how a bigger tube could help research time unless it carries caffine and pizza to the labs but that doesnt need a very big tube lol.  I could only see the bigger tubes for ore transport instead of cargo trucks and smaller tubes.  But here is another Idea for the Big tube.  What if they could also be used as tunnels to go through mountains.  That would make the Big tube being expensive even more worth it.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on October 01, 2005, 02:03:49 PM
the main resourses moving around the colony are food and ore yea?
the biger tubes would only be used for this stuff i think. and realy i dont think it would make any big difference.

And Stormy, yes, everything.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 01, 2005, 02:26:16 PM
Ya a bigger tube between the nursery and university it would be a conveyorbelt the the children would ride on it to the uni to become great but quickly dieing scientists lol.  

A bigger tube that is hard to kill and no cargo trucks to worry about between the smelter and mine.  and the big tube would have the advantage of being faster then the cargo trucks and the normal tube.  more room so more material moved and it would be a constant stream of ore but it wouldnt be mass ore in like 1 sec.  Just think of it being a steady stream of ore that would equal a well placed smelter with 2 trucks one a normal or old yeild 3 bar only it would be on a high yeild 2 bar.  would also make a 1 bar worth having by making it a low yeild 2 bar.

5 resources for the colony Ore Power Workers Scientists Food

That brings up another idea buildings rely on the CC for automation I beleive.  So if there was no CC i think the number of workers/scientists for each building should go up.  So as long as they have power they can run at a half capacity/speed.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Betaray on October 01, 2005, 04:45:44 PM
If I remeber from the nolvalia's, some of the tubes were widened to make a public plazza, they were crowded with little shops and small sleeping querters and things like that

so mabe the bigger tubes would improve morale, and mabe have a little bit of residence capeability
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 01, 2005, 10:29:55 PM
I like that idea a lot. Adding a bit of commerce to the game. That would also make the trade missions more useful (they were semi-useful in OP1 but was never explored further in OP2).

Larger tubes for market places... One could add a whole new element to the game: economy.... Of course, that could make things particularly difficult so it could be turned off for certain missions or on easy difficultly levels or multiplayer games but could expand Colony Games.... Damn, these are all really good thoughts... :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 02, 2005, 01:26:18 AM
Seems like Big tubes are good for just about every thing
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 02, 2005, 01:37:16 AM
Ok so basically

   > Big tubes used for Ore instead of cargo trucks (I don't particulary like this idea, It just doesn't seem right.... It's too easy...)
   > Tubes with recreation centers, shops, economic stuff, (I LOVE that idea... :D Whole new element!

And how about this: the Genesis STOCK MARKET!  :heh:  (OH NO THE DEPRESSION!)
   > Artery tubes (Awesome idea, :)
   > How about Nuclear power xD
   > Oh, and how about this: if the colonists are on a planet that is survivable, (if the user's gfx card is good enough,)  we could have little low poly colonists walking around on the surface...
              --- There would be a way to turn it off, and disable it in Multi

   > RCC has vehicle limit, and the more people that are 'employed' there, the more vechs you can control
   >Here are MANY more ideas I came up with back in the day, when it wasn't time to think about them:

Types of Colony games:
      Rescue
      The player has to build the rescue convoy and rescue the colonists

         Population
         Speaks for itself, same colonist # levels as Terraformation

         Terraformation

         Research to terraform the planet, and grow your colony to
   -200 colonists for easy -- Reduced spontaniousness for disasters and deaths,

                -400 colonists for medium -- Plain ol' regular gameplay

   -600 colonists for Hard with enhanced diasaster dmgs and spontaniousness

   Types of Multiplayer Games
         Land Rush
            Same as OP2 land rush,
         LOS
            Same as Op2 LOS,
         Rush
            Starts out as a LOS, but with a trade center, and adv/std labs already built, so its a faster game.

   Arena
Starts out as LOS, but the map has 'arenas' that the players must fight in..

Survival?

Some form of a longer game, but how would we make it 'longer' so that people can't 'rush' in this mode? Ppl quote this part and help :P This will help make the game more enjoyable for all (Thinking of you Leeor) . Maybe have a 'field' that is created so that the players can't leave their bases until time X arrives.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 02, 2005, 01:46:42 AM
Remember stormy the big tube cost alot to make call it a investment to the future plus for the ore idea its would be just as fast as using cargo trucks based on the distance between smelter and mine.  but instead of having it come in one big chunk it would come in a steady stream but would equal to having it in a chunk
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 02, 2005, 01:52:14 AM
The ore tube could be used to move ore from the smelter to the factory faster. I like the cargo trucks, so it would go like: Mine, carried by truck to smelter, then goes through 'super tube' and ends up at factory faster, therefore speeding up build time.

Big tubes should only be used in Multiplayer. Single player isn't long enough to really have the time to build those. Remember, Those tubes won't be finished until a bit later in the game, It takes a LONG time to come up with the ore to build it, and so they would use Trucks until they get that.

If the distance is more than X (game units), then you cannot use the tubes, you must use trucks, Although we might be able to make a 'facility' that can help pump it that distance, it takes lots of pressure to move the ore, the longer the distance, the more pressure it takes.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 02, 2005, 09:26:14 AM
Moving metals between structures is much less of an effort than some people think. You don't pump it through the tubes like water, do you? It would be transported with some sort of conveyor belt. And a conveyor belt wouldn't need much place, and to make it transport more of whatever you can just speed it up.

A connection to a cc wouldn't be of use, because all what a cc normally does is control what every structure or vehicle in the colony does. Even if you assume that more processing power (provided by computers in the cc's) can speed up certain processes you forget that a computer can operate everywhere, get taskes from everywhere and send the result to everywhere. All thats needed is a fast data-connection. No need to bring a Savant to a Lab etc.

A good idea instead might be public transportation in the bigger tubes, so that workers/scientists can reach the place where they work faster.

 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Mez on October 02, 2005, 09:28:55 AM
perhaps the bigger tubes can be destroyed,

i.e. you "expand" a small tube to become a large one, to increase resource flow, or morale.

However the "expansion" of the tube, could be liable to damage from weapons or disasters.

So once the expanison has been damage then it reverts back to a smaller tube.

What do you think?

Big tubes could also be impassible by vech. as how is a vech going to get over a big cylinder sticking out of the ground?  (of course they can get over the submerged smaller tubes)

nulear power is good, could a nuclear power plant explosion (from damage) destroy the area around it (including say low/ med armour buildings) you got the emp blast as well.
but how about making the area around the exploded nuc reactor uninhabiable,  so you cant build on it for say 50 mark.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Hooman on October 02, 2005, 03:06:23 PM
Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Tokamaks already nuclear power plants? (fusion)

Edit: and for that matter, don't most vehicles supposedly have some sort of small nuclear reactor that powers them?
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zigzagjoe on October 02, 2005, 03:51:30 PM
yes, and yes. read over the novella and the tech teasers; you'll get a lot of specifics. also the help file is a good source for info.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on October 02, 2005, 05:25:35 PM
good stuff

yea u dont need pressure to move metals. convayerbelt or vecs or trains going down the tube or wutevea.

houses in tubes - no imo, and same with shops etc. i think there would be enough space at colony buildings for this stuff where it should be.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zigzagjoe on October 02, 2005, 05:32:38 PM
i belive it said it was stored in a 'slurry' form and sent down tubes .
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 02, 2005, 05:51:50 PM
Stuff from the mine to the smelter is sent in the same form as the trucks just uses a cargo truck and you would use a caonveyorbelt but you have to remember a conveyorbelt can have stuff all the way to the edge of the belt so you would need a wider belt or some kind of car system but a car system would need a return track so a car can be emptied at one end and filled at the other. If the big tube is impassible it could double as a wall.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on October 02, 2005, 07:02:06 PM
Lol nice idea for sure but would you realy have major colony tubeing which is vital to the colony at the edge of the colonys base?

but yea if they are impassable they are a wall to units, but they can be attacked. a % of it would still be left in the ground. only the lower part would be destroyed by the unit. well unless it was something like a starflare.

what i would like to c in this game is more types of uinits, like a small unit would take ages to destroy one of these impassable tubes but the vec 1 step up from it would be able to destroy the faster. well that depends on the weapon anyway.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 02, 2005, 07:35:07 PM
Ok so basically

Lynx are light weapons... fast but weaker than the panthers and Tigers.

Panthers are the all-around ones, they are medium strong and kinda slow
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 03, 2005, 08:08:39 AM
Quote
Ok so basically

Lynx are light weapons... fast but weaker than the panthers and Tigers.

Panthers are the all-around ones, they are medium strong and kinda slow
You can't just say weapons on lynxes are weaker. The weapon is the same and I guess the genrator that powers it is also the same. Tigers are of course stronger, because they have a dual-turret and GPs are stronger, because they have connection to a cc, but besides why would a panther-laser be stronger than a lynx-laser?
And we also don't want to give heavy units too much of an advantage since they already have better armor.

I'm not totally against other unit types though. Smaller units than lynxes which are probably even faster, but also weaker are a reasonable idea. Maybe as an enhencement of the scorpions. They'd finally be of use then.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 03, 2005, 04:18:24 PM
Hey, I'm going to delete my post that you quoted... Its a pointless one :P, and yes you are right :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 04, 2005, 12:53:59 PM
> How about Nuclear power xD

Tokomak's are nuclear in nature. Fusion to be exact. And they are devices that exist today. However, we don't use them for power because it takes more energy to contain the fusion reactor than it puts out. Not exactly the most efficient power plant, huh?

Anyway, it's being worked on in real life.

Artery's are certainly something to think about but I wonder what their true use in the game would be. I certainly like the idea of a basic economy (nothing nearly as complex as a stock market but it could boost morale to some degree provided the luxury goods are produced in the consumer's factory), however, it may add way too much to the game. That's why it really would only be good in colony games or in missions surrounding the an econmy.

I like the idea that Artery's can be taken out with various weapons. Adds to the potential disaster. Of course, if one of those things blows out from weapons fire if it's in economy mode than you're also going to lose some population.

I like the idea fo the Arteries being able to be constructed out of original tubes. It reminds me of something... but I can't remember what it is. It does, however, make it more difficult to build them as well as costly and time consuming requiring that the player truelly consider where to place them and how to use them.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 04, 2005, 05:20:50 PM
What about nuclear powered Weapons or Vehicles,

Ie: its as an upgrade, makes vehicles faster
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 04, 2005, 05:26:09 PM
Quote
What about nuclear powered Weapons or Vehicles,

Ie: its as an upgrade, makes vehicles faster
nuclear power is already used in Outpost2, also in vehicles.
Nuclear power is probably why tokamaks permanently loose hitpoints.
And effective nuclear fusion is realistic in the time in which Outpost2 plays.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 04, 2005, 05:30:48 PM
Ok then, so Nuclear stuff is already there and in use.... What about some other satelites?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 04, 2005, 07:59:32 PM
Actually, the vehicles in the OP series uses fuel cells. Nuclear power is just too unstable and mobile fusion drives (sized for a lynx) just simply wouldn't be practicle in addition to being extremely dangerous. Plus, if you get a containment leak from one of those on-board fusion reactors you'd have a mini-nuke on your hands and that just won't do.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Hooman on October 04, 2005, 08:20:16 PM
Ahem, since people seem to be ignoring me.

Taken from multitek.txt. Anyone else ever bother to read about the tech they're researching? Or are you all too busy clicking?


Advanced Vehicle Power Plant
Teaser:
Quote
Several of the vehicle models we use are powered by the R-2000 cool-fusion plant.  Our work in High-Temperature Superconductivity may be applicable to an improvement of this power plant.
Description:
Quote
The new R-3000 series cool-fusion plant has been installed in all Cargo Trucks, Robo-Dozers, Earthworkers, replacing the earlier R-2000 model.  This application of the High-Temperature Superconductivity technology has increased the speed of these vehicles.



Also,
Independent Turret Power Systems
Teaser:
Quote
Our weapons turrets currently feed off the Lynx cool-fusion power plant.  Because of the other demands on this power system, the amount of power that is available to the weapon is limited.  Our research project will develop an independent power source for weapons turrets.
Description:
Quote
The R-10 cool-fusion power cell, just developed, is a small but powerful generator designed to fit into the weapons turret on our Lynx combat vehicles.  This replaces the power feeds from the Lynx' own cool-fusion plant, and makes possible other, more powerful weapons systems.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 04, 2005, 08:31:16 PM
Cool, good info. But the Tokomak is not a cool-fusion device. Tokomak reactors reach a core tempurature of around 40 million degrees farenheit... much higher than the surface of the sun. The only reason it doesn't melt down is because the superheated plasma inside the torroidal chamber is contained within a magnetic field.

As far as cold-fusion is concerned, that does help quite a bit in terms of allowing mobile fusion reactors. Cool fusion is theoretically possible (actually, a friend and I have come up with several solutions that should make it work but we just simply don't have the money, time or resources to try it [plus the possibility of leveling half of the state]) so it's not too much to stretch that in the next 60 years we may just as well have cold-fusion reactors (that would certainly change the way the world works!).
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: HaXtOr on October 04, 2005, 09:33:33 PM
Why not use a premade Game engine? Like the Halflife Engine or the HalfLife 2? Halo anyone? shure they are shooting games but the engiens are very well documented and easy to use
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 04, 2005, 09:41:16 PM
You definatly need to read some of the earlier pages.

And quite frankly, if I was going to use a premade engine, it WOULD NOT BE THE HALFLIFE SERIES.

Halflife was based on the Quake2 engine. And I have access to the Quake2 source. So I would just use that. Plus, it's nearly 10 years old so forget it.

HalfLife two is a first person shooter and this game is not.

Plus, it'd take just as long to read through someone elses work and make it work the way I wanted it to than to simply program my own engine. Besides, I have a few friends that are also programmers that will help with several of the engine components (e.g., networking, sound, etc.) so I'm pretty much focusing on the basic game logic.

As far as the rendering engine is concerned, I would rather use a highly optimized current rendering engine than something that's already 2 years old. The graphics component is done so I don't have to worry about that. I just have to create the necessary interfaces to supply the Refresh engine with what to go do with itself.

Plus, I wanted to program a 3D game with other people as part of a team rather than solo this time and OP3 was perfect for me.

Besides, the refresh engine is really good. Take a look at http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net (http://genesis.outpostuniverse.net) and view the Images section. THere are a few screenshots from the game there.

Also, for larger images (I think I left larger images), view page like 3 or 4 or something. They're around there somewhere.
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: HaXtOr on October 04, 2005, 09:43:33 PM
ah sounds like what im doig in java only with simtower lol.. maybe it can be used for op2?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 04, 2005, 09:47:07 PM
Um... you totally miss the point:

1. Making a new engine makes it fun and interesting; It's a learning experience no matter HOW good you are
2. Even if the code for another engine is documented, It's not really enough to allow us to edit it to the point of making the OP3
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 04, 2005, 09:48:31 PM
All the vecs run on morale and burning the dead bodies of scientists lol.  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: HaXtOr on October 04, 2005, 09:59:51 PM
lol Gorden freeman stop killing your scientists lmao
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 04, 2005, 10:03:09 PM
Quote
All the vecs run on morale and burning the dead bodies of scientists lol.

ROFLMFAO!!!

Well, stormy said it best: It's fun to create new things (that I intend to release into the community so that Levi's dreams of remaking OP2 in a 3D RTS engine comes true) and it's great to have everyone involved even if it's just certain parts of it (BTW, the suggestions are the biggest part of what we need! The ideas!)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: HaXtOr on October 04, 2005, 10:07:36 PM
Omg I  so have to make a op2 Scientist kill mod for halflife lol go to the eden or plymoth base secritly to kill the scientists lmao
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 04, 2005, 10:12:59 PM
You'll be able to make that MOD for OP3 as well...  :yawn:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 04, 2005, 10:29:58 PM
Lol, you mean go in and shoot the scientists!?!? LOL! Ok... LEts get back on topic...

Back to ideas :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 04, 2005, 10:42:01 PM
Choke the Lab Assistant... Run 'im down with a scooter! Ahhh hahahahahahahaha!!!

/me compses himself.

Back to reality...

<moogle's charm is rubbing off on me>
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 04, 2005, 11:20:32 PM
Ok people, Shall I make a new thread for Ideas so that they are organized? :D

Basically make a new thread for each idea, the ideas will be pinned if they are good, and not if the are in progress/ not going to work.

Hacker or someone, could you make another sub-forum inside Outpost:Genesis? This would be for the ideas, that way we have a clear area for the pins, and the ones that aren't pinned.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 05, 2005, 04:38:15 AM
Quote
Ok people, Shall I make a new thread for Ideas so that they are organized? :D

Basically make a new thread for each idea, the ideas will be pinned if they are good, and not if the are in progress/ not going to work.

Hacker or someone, could you make another sub-forum inside Outpost:Genesis? This would be for the ideas, that way we have a clear area for the pins, and the ones that aren't pinned.
good approach. It'll be really hard to sort though, because you can't just seperate all ideas, most of them work as a whole.

PS: can someone tell me: is spam allowed now? if so, I will also start posting lots of useless stuff. I haven't seen as many new posts on one day before in this thread.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 05, 2005, 05:23:12 PM
Same here, so I would rather that this thread not get spammed. The idea for this thread is actually to be for a snippets of goodies about the OP3 project (and yeah, there are PLENTY more!) :-)

Either way, stormy, I think it'd be good to split the topics.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 05, 2005, 10:21:53 PM
Ok, How do you propose we sort the ideas then? I'm really really tired, so .... bear with me if I don't make any sense  :lol:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 09, 2005, 11:41:34 AM
Since you guys want to separate this into different suggestion threads.  Then make this tread so only you guys can post in it but every one else can see it.  Or set up the other threads right away lol
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 09, 2005, 12:03:48 PM
Quote
Ok, How do you propose we sort the ideas then? I'm really really tired, so .... bear with me if I don't make any sense  :lol:
I suggest we don't spam this thread with ideas of how to sort ideas. We should rather discuss this internally.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zigzagjoe on October 09, 2005, 12:07:43 PM
only way to set somehting like that freeza is if you set the forum options. perhaps levi or hacker could create a sep subforum for ya'll?

being able to see the threads and not reply to them, tho, doesnt seem like the best way to get ideas and such.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 09, 2005, 08:45:29 PM
You guys should make a research thread and a buildings thread to go along with your Units thread
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 10, 2005, 09:58:54 AM
Quote
You guys should make a research thread and a buildings thread to go along with your Units thread
We have still not a final solution for the new organization of ideas. I suggest you wait with your ideas on structures/research till be have it.
You should also consider that you don't know the exact settings of the game yet, so you risk that the technology that you post doesn't fit in the game.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 10, 2005, 12:22:56 PM
Agreed on all counts.

I think that the suggestions threads would be best served once I finish the final version of the story docs and send it on its way for finalization. After that it'll be pretty clear what technologies, structures and units will be made available to the game.

As a note, I had released some information here to help me refine our original ideas (such as the random explosion idea. It's helped tremendously to a) find a more plausible version and B) create the grounds for the first confrontation in the story.) So as a result of a few of the things released, I ended up restructuring and rewriting the entire outline.

Also, I was originally hoping that this thread would be for the juicy bits of gossip and news about the OP3 project. So far, it has been primarily that. Afterward we ended up with a whole lot of other suggestions which are really great but end up cluttering this particular post (it's not easy to read each post to make sure I know what everyone is saying).

So long story short: Here's the news and gossip section. Feel free to challenge something that doesn't make sense (I love being challenged) but make sure that you'll be able to back up your argument.

Suggestions should be posted in the appropriate threads. So far we've got some great ideas for other aspects of the game but for now not too much will be necessary when it comes down to units and structures until we've finalized our story.

Anyway, I do want to thank everyone for their enthusiasm. It's refreshing to say the least!  (thumbsup)  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 10, 2005, 05:24:10 PM
Hmm it seems that most of the thing you want are going to add up into this story and if it is finished wont that mean all the ideas are pointless?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 10, 2005, 08:39:24 PM
Nope. Actually, your challenging my whole salts explosion is what helped to procure the changes to the outline in the first place. After asking you several times for a possible explanation, someone else had made a suggestion (pockets of gas trapped within the rocks that when mixed with surface gasses can react violently with a catalyst, e.g. mining sparks or lightning). By having that idea, I was better able to explain various situations in the story outline that were never really explained before hand.

Also, just becuase I say that the story outline and design docs are finalized doesn't mean they're set in stone. When I say finalized, what I really mean is that between myself and the other members of the OP3 team that we're completely ready to release it to everyone here so that we can get feedback. Then we'll go back around between ourselves to review the feedback and incorporate it however is appropriate to the story itself (as well as allowing for a proffesional feel to the game/story).

So in essence, what stormy, zanco, TH300 and I are doing is laying out a foundation for everyone to build off of. While I myself will be doing much of the programing and stormy will be doing much of the modeling, everyone who is interested will, in reality, have had a serious helping hand in the development of the game itself.

Great graphics, sound, music and interface is only part of what makes a game awesome. The other part is the story backing the game. Actually, that's easily the most important part of any game seconded by a clear and precise design implementation.

I hope this all makes sense.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 10, 2005, 08:51:12 PM
I see
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 10, 2005, 09:11:16 PM
Yea, Thing is, when i started out, i had no idea that I would be the lead modeler. Look at me now :lol: . So, Yea, It's amazing that this is really really coming together and isn't just a big dream. It is very real and will become more so as the days pass.

Wow, I have gone off-topic.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 10, 2005, 11:14:47 PM
Moving back on topic... More info leak! (actually, I was just talking to Hooman and Freeza on IRC)

In Outpost, the starship Conestoga launched from the orbit of Jupiter after having loaded its human cargo.

However, in Outpost 2, the opening animation shows a starship launching from Earth's orbit:

http://www.genesis.outpostuniverse.net/Files/op1-op2_inconsistency.jpg

OP2's story definatly takes place from Conestoga's launch because of the two colonies Eden and Plymouth, Plymouth being the 'Rebel' colony.

As various official sources from SIERRA On-Line state (from the mouth of Bruce Balfour, designer of Outpost 1)

Bruce Balfour basically tells the tale of how the governments of the world don't have enough resources or intelligence to build the starships. So a 'Multinational Conglomerate' takes on the task.

The original plan called for four colony ships to be built and to be launced in two pairs. One to one star system, the other pair to another star system (thus improving the chances of survival). Being that this would be extremely expensive and would cause a series strain on the resources of the conglomerate, they scraped that idea in favor of just one starship (named Conestoga in OP2).

<explanation of the inconsistency>

Several weeks after Conestoga launched, the plan to break apart the asteroid dubbed 'Vulcan's Hammer' by the media failed. The asteroid was broken into two large chunks both of which would hit Earth destroying human civilization.

Being the only entity on Earth to have working plans for a colony ship, the Conglomerate was asked by the governements of the world to build a second starship. The starship Frontier, fueled by the last remaining resources on Earth,  was loaded up and launched just as the asteroid chunks plunged into Earth's Atmosphere. The people of the Frontier looked for the last time as Earth was destroyed knowing that they would never see or feel the comfort of their world again. (oooh... I think I just got my creative writting back! Be prepared, you just might see that in the opening for OP3's novella!)

Anyway, so Frontier was launched just months after Conestoga. I leave it to speculation for everyone to try to figure out what happened to the Frontier.  :whistle:


EDIT: Removed 'img' tags and left the original links instead. Unfortunately I no longer have these images.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on October 11, 2005, 04:46:02 AM
It ran out of fuel? :o
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 11, 2005, 11:56:54 AM
A bit more that might help to make sense of my above post:

Frontier didn't run out of fuel and Frontier's fate is part of OP3's story (actually, a major part of it).
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 12, 2005, 04:02:39 PM
So the ship that made it to New Terra is the one that launched from earth and the OP3 ship came from Jupiter?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Axalon on October 12, 2005, 04:31:38 PM
Meh, I don't really like the idea as it is. Sounds too much like a rushed attempt to cover up a plothole (which it is).

Perhaps the colonists on Conestoga II (the ship that was built on New Terra, and I just made up that name) pick up a random transmission (like some random news broadcast) from the planet Frontier colonized.

This could happen halfway withing the story, after your colony is well established ("Tutorial" missions over with). The scientists at the New Eden advanced lab (there I go with names for the new colony) try to track the signal. All the skeptic's conjectures that its an old Earth transmission are dissipated when the lab publishes that it originated in the Orion system (other possible locations: Sirius, Epsilon Eri, Procyon, Kapteyn's Star [Don't use Alpha Centauri as that is rather close to Earth and Consetoga probably scoped it already]).

Maybe it could tie in to using the multiple-planet gameplay mechanics that were theorized a few pages back. Please comment.

-Axalon
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 12, 2005, 04:41:54 PM
Oh my a radio transmittion eh?  Well seeming how the people were in a Cryostasis sleep.  Meaning they when really far away.  If the ships go in different directions then the length need to transmit over would be huge.  Even tho radio waves move at the speed of light or close to it.  it would take a very long time for either of the colonies to hear some thing from each other.

As for the stars It dont think it said where they eventually ended up.  But the even though these stars have planets in ther games dont mean its true lol.  side note(What i want to know is why they didnt go to mars.)  Plus the possiblity of these place having a solid planet that is some what habitable is very slim.  I really dont like the multipul world stuff.  This isnt a space game its a survival of the colony RTS.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Axalon on October 12, 2005, 05:00:33 PM
I agree with the multi-planet thing being kind of iffy. Although my logic around the radio is that the time frame for the Conestoga's voyage, to my understanding, was +/- 100 years. If Frontier landed earlier or at the same time as Conestoga, then factor in how long it takes for the New Terran ship to colonize, you have quite a few light-years to play with.

If you are uncomfortable using star system names, it can just be referred as a outlying star system.

Well, keeping as far away from FTL as possible (lets be reasonable, okay?), we could assume that Frontier and Conestoga did not take straight, opposite paths, but sort of bent near each other. You could also say that Conestoga did not know about Frontier and its launch, so it could be possible that they may have covered each other's tracks at one point in their journeys.

Yeah, going to Mars seemed like a better idea...

Theoretically, you can relocate people onto the moon and sort of ramscoop the dust cloud out of Earth's atmosphere. Would make getting a breathable atmosphere easier. I mean, unless Vulcan's Hammer shattered Earth (which is REALLY hard, as a planetlike entity named Orpheus hit Earth early on, and simply coalesed, though ejecting a lot of magma into space, which is how the Moon came to be).
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 12, 2005, 07:01:34 PM
A little off topic but a a big ass meteor would make the planet very inhabitable.  It would raise the temps 100+ and then there would be a fall out from all the dust in the atmo.  Not only that but there could be a great possiblity of the atmo burning of making mars look lik the whitehouse lol.

Oh yes i am attempting to make a Crab Avata.  Crab you know that explosive aracnid unit i spoke of some here above lol.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 12, 2005, 09:11:42 PM
Lol, you guys are wayy wrong. I am not saying anything else but just to let you know, a transmission isn't exactly right. Go read the ending to OP2s novella and think about what could happen next ;)

Good Luck figuring out what we have in mind :D

This could be fun lol

One thing: Conestoga DIDN"T know DIP about Frontier! :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Betaray on October 12, 2005, 09:19:59 PM
well for one, the Moon dosnt have all the resources to support a civalization, expecially with no Earth to support it

but Mars would be capeable of creating a civalization, and it would be alot easier and alot less risky than going to another planet

mabe after the conastoga leaves, another faction makes a coloney on Mars, and because they dont have the disasters, combat, and blight to worry about, they made their own starship to send out and find out the fate of the conastoga

I know, im not a writer, but its a start right?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 12, 2005, 09:34:54 PM
um... this is a new solar system -_-
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 12, 2005, 09:49:52 PM
we know that but we have to scrutinize this transmittion thing which i dont think is possible.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Mcshay on October 13, 2005, 05:18:09 AM
Which novella should we read? The Eden one or the Plymouth one?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: DragonLord on October 13, 2005, 06:44:17 AM
ehm does it really say one of them came from jupiter? I thought it just refeuled there, like plymouth planned to do with their craft. The story as I have in my head: the conastoga leaves earth just before the hammer impacts (op2 movie) then  moves to an orbit around jupiter which is the easiest way to take in the huge amounts of fuel they need(op1) movie. It would be kinda weird to build the whole thing in orbit around jupiter wouldn't it? all industry would be on earth, if they had that kind of industry around jupiter they could survive there easily.

something a bit different but with more (plausible) multi planetary colonies (and just one ship :)):

The new conastoga was build in an extreme rush so there is a very big possability for things to go wrong. What if for example the power systems fail but they are able to get into a solar system. The solar system isn't a prime choice for habitation though so they decide to repair the ship with materials found in the system and to continue their journey (maybe the savants send them a few solar system coordinates with earth like planets or so)
Problem is that none of the planets have all needed materials. Two of the most earth like ones though have everything combined. One of them is rich in metals and carbon to make casings and the like for new reactors and the other one is rich in hydrogen, deuterium and the like to fuel the reactors. The people decide to start a colony on each of the planets to speed up the proces and be able to transfer to the other one if one of them has problems.

This could give some nice storylines: maybe after a while the shuttles get unesable bacause of the corrosive atmosphere or bad pilotting (great for getting more tension between colonies). Or the colonies grow to big to both fit on the conastoga and have to fight for it. Because both planets don't have all resources aplenty maybe you get raids between them.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 13, 2005, 08:59:11 AM
To clear some things up:
=====================================================

Conestoga is the ship that left from JUPITER to colonize New Terra. Basically, it was assembled in Earth's Orbit, loaded and was moved to Jupiter using Rocket Boosters where it then fueled up for its long journey. This is the official story from Outpost 1 (which Outpost 2 is based on).

The other ship, Frontier, is the one that was launched from Earth. Because of the obvious impending fate of Earth, the multinational conglomerate that built and launched Conestoga also built Frontier. They were able to use whatever resources they could to create the fuel needed for Frontier's launch which they then sent on its way just before the two chunks of the asteroid Vulcan's Hammer hit Earth destroying everything.

=====================================================

There were no transmissions between Frontier and the colonies that were built on New Terra. Remember that the colonists aboard both ships are in a state of 'slow sleep' and will not be woken up until they are ready to be landed on the planet (aside from the brief excersise periods during flight).

=====================================================

If anyone is interested in more in-depth story about Outpost 1 and where a lot of my ideas came from and have based some of the story on, I will be more than happy to scan the entire book that Bruce Balfour (designer of Outpost) and produce it on the website as a PDF file (and of course stick it into the Wiki). Rather, there are specific sections in the book dedicated to the back-story of Outpost.

There is a lot of story here and because Dynamix did not have anything to do with the first game (except that they looked at it for references), there are some inconsistencies which I wanted to explain. Through use of the book as well as help from TH300, Stormy and Zanco, I think we've acomplished it very well and gracefully.

Also, as far as landing on Mars and why they didn't do that in the first place, it's also explained in the book. I think I'll post that expert. I just need to find the book.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 13, 2005, 10:24:21 AM
yes I would like to know why they didnt land on mars

And all of that is very interesting  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Axalon on October 13, 2005, 01:31:50 PM
I actually enjoy the scrutiny my idea is going under, as it is a civilized discussion and no one has been flamed. Kinda like a debate... Freeza has a lot of good points, some I completely neglected to factor in (and I'm a big astrophysics buff, I should know this, :P ).

I guess I should clarify that in my story idea Frontier has already established a colony, and that they aren't still in cold sleep in space. But as I rethink it now, I don't think that story would have had a great plot anyway.

PS: End of novella...are you suggesting that the Savant hive mind on New Terra finally DID send their dreams as their gift, blueprints for a new world of wonders? (Yeah, that's from the ending cinematic)
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 13, 2005, 03:50:44 PM
Hmm I thought the Blight destroyed the Savant computer because of there organic type parts.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 13, 2005, 08:49:45 PM
Maybe maybe not :o

What could happen to the Savants if that doesn't happen? If it does, what do you think would happen.

(this is funny watching you guys try to figure it out)  :lol:


stormy :op2:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 13, 2005, 08:51:36 PM
LOL im not trying to figure it out i am only stating what i know to the best of my brain capacity
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 13, 2005, 10:41:26 PM
/me knows all!!! (or do I?)  :lol:

I'm just watching you guys try to guess on what the storyline is...
/me gets popcorn  (thumbsup)

I'm just playing with you guys, We might get other ideas about the novella from your guesses! so Let's move to another thread, shall we?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 14, 2005, 12:31:18 PM
Stormy, you are a true deviant (feeding off the misery of others).  :D

Anyway, Axalon, your original thought is, for the most part correct. Frontier did indeed establish a colony. The time frame, however, is a different story.

As far as not landing on Mars, there was speculation that the collision with Earth would send Earth on a slightly different orbit around the Sun which in turn would affect the other planets (at least the inner rocky planets). Mars would be affected and it is very much possible that it might even be pushed a little closer into or near the Asteroid belt making it a particularly dangerous planet to live on. So yes it was possible to just land on Mars but the potential for other unanticipated disasters made it necessary to find a new place to live (preferably without a rocky Oort cloud if one could be found).

Of course, this wasn't the case with New Terra.

And Freeza, again, it's wonderful to have challenges to my/our thoughts. Poking holes is good; it makes for a more complete, more believable story! :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Axalon on October 14, 2005, 05:28:13 PM
Freeza, watch the ending cinematic for Playmouth (CPF.avi). Or just read the Plymouth novella. It says how the organic portions of the savants merged with the Blight to form one powerful mind.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 14, 2005, 05:44:50 PM
I still dont know how that would be possible for the organic Boptronics Savants to still function after they are turned in to a optronics by the blight.  A lynx couldnt work.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 14, 2005, 06:09:21 PM
Quote
/me knows all!!! (or do I?)  :lol:

I'm just watching you guys try to guess on what the storyline is...
/me gets popcorn  (thumbsup)

I'm just playing with you guys, We might get other ideas about the novella from your guesses! so Let's move to another thread, shall we?
About that post:

1. I was a little hyper
2. I was intending to joke around, and I"m not intending to offend anyone
My behavior was wrong, and I sincerely apologize. Now, That hurt me the way it was pointed out, but I'm admiting I was wrong.

Stormy  :'(

(I feel like smacking the marbles our of myself right now)
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 14, 2005, 06:53:29 PM
Yeah, that's what Plymouth's thing said but I don't see it as quite so feasible.

However, the Savant Computers have components comrpised of organic compounds (various protiens to be exact).

The lynx's could work. They just were unable to respond to Human commands.

By losing the ability to recognize humans, the Savant Computers would still function but could be extremely dangerous. Just because their protien components are gone doesn't mean they can't function. Their AI and polymorphic software (as well as voice synthesis) were not part of the bio-components: those are hard-coded into the non-organic electronic components. The ability to recognize and communicate with humans is essentially what has been lost (as well as the ability to communicate with boptronic equipment with protiens still intact).

So yeah, super smart AI computers no longer recognizing humans... Hmm... sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 14, 2005, 07:03:19 PM
Yes that would make things very interesting.  Basicly a Blight controled AI and a Higher sence of reality for the blight and Savants.  A planet turned in a smart living organism.  seem like there could be a plot a foot on the planet of New Terra to kill all humans.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 14, 2005, 08:23:11 PM
The blight is not an intelegent entity. It is merely a microbe that kills all the bonds in organic compounds. That is why the boptronics in the vehicles were destroyed.

Stormy :op2:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 14, 2005, 08:30:18 PM
But it is to merge with the savants thus it would be smart
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on October 15, 2005, 06:31:41 AM
And that is why people wanted to create the microbe team for a outpost game. blight and savants. anyone rember some of the ideas which were thought up?
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: HaXtOr on October 15, 2005, 10:52:31 AM
why cant the next op2 game take place on a nother planet with a different plot? totaly new story line? maybe something like the cold war? or better yet the escape ship crashed after sabitaqe
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 15, 2005, 11:00:52 AM
Quote
why cant the next op2 game take place on a nother planet with a different plot? totaly new story line? maybe something like the cold war? or better yet the escape ship crashed after sabitaqe
You wouldn't ask this question if you knew the novella-outline.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 15, 2005, 11:47:57 AM
You need to read the rest of the thread moogle lol

The blight and savant team wouldnt really work because op3 is on a different planet far far away from new terra.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: DragonLord on October 16, 2005, 04:47:20 AM
The idea in the novella as far as I read it was that the biological parts of the savants really made them intelligent, not all the hardware around it which was just for communication and the like. The blight contains some savant enzymes which form an environment for the biological part of the savants, letting their intelligences continue to survive and even expand after their containment hardware is destroyed. This then forms the basis of a hive mind planet which would be one giant savant.

Oh and the proof the bilogical parts are what contain the intelligence of the savants: Kraft, emma's savant, want emma to let him crash into the planet from orbit so he can join his fellow savants. The hardware won't survive this (is said in the novella) but his biological parts will and thus he will survive.

Oh btw. another little idea: maybe another group on earth wasn't able to build a whole new startship but was able to build enough stuff to start a colony on Mars. Yes they knew this would be very risky but it would be better then dieing on earth. (Maybe it was some non consortium regime which rebelled against the new world order the consortium would head). This would give you a third (fourth if you count the savants too) group to play with.  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 16, 2005, 12:05:09 PM
A third group would be interesting. and mars would be a logical place to go even if its orbit is slightly altered by earth.  I dont think it woul dbe enough to push it into the astroid belt.  The Ort Cloud is where comets come from and planets dont usually get hit by those.

Oh yes I am interested if you have selected any of the ideas that have been tossed out there to accually go into the game so far.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: TH300 on October 16, 2005, 12:28:06 PM
Quote
A third group would be interesting. and mars would be a logical place to go even if its orbit is slightly altered by earth.  I dont think it woul dbe enough to push it into the astroid belt.  The Ort Cloud is where comets come from and planets dont usually get hit by those.
I don't think a colony on Mars would fit in the concept of Op3.

Quote
Oh yes I am interested if you have selected any of the ideas that have been tossed out there to accually go into the game so far.
no, we have not yet decided on the ideas.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 17, 2005, 12:24:27 PM
The problem with a Blight/Savant merged system is that it just wouldn't work. There is no feasible way of creating a Savant that 'knows' what the Blight wants. Microbes are not sentient in the way we know and thus the savant's would simply be operating like they would with their own perogative.

However, just because the biological components of the Savants have been removed, that doesn't make them dumb. The biological components allowed them to use a simple 'reasoning' system in order to respond to human interaction. I believe it would also have been used as a basis for basic memory recollection (e.g., to know and recognize a particular human through voice or visual).

Now, with those gone, the rest of the computer will very likely continue to operate.

As far as landing on Mars, it's not an issue with the current story/time-line of the Outpost universe. Humans left Earth. Period. The left the solar system. Period. It's done. It's a dead issue. Our solar system with Earth, Venus, Mars and the rest of it all is not in the Outpost story. Just accept it because that's the way it is.

Quote
The blight and savant team wouldnt really work because op3 is on a different planet far far away from new terra.

Well... the story does take place far away from New Terra...

BTW, I noticed something in the post I added with the OP1/OP2 images:

Quote
The original plan called for four colony ships to be built and to be launced in two pairs

Big huge ubber-dubber line!
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 17, 2005, 07:02:50 PM
Quote
But it is to merge with the savants thus it would be smart
THe BLIGHT and Savants cannot merge! They are TWO seperate entities. The bight is non-sentinent. The Savants are sentinent. The bight doesn't know it exists. The Savants don't but they are a highly sophisticated AI so they work like normal anyway.

I hope you get this point. To prevent further confusion, I will say very bluntly again, The savants and blight do not merge to create a single entity. They are seperate forces. The blight is just a "bug" (it's a microbe) that breaks compounds between molecules. The Savants are trying to eliminate any threats. The blight isn't a threat to them because they already have their bonds broken. In fact I don't think they even know the blight exists--Their memory was deleted. Remember? The Savants dont reconize friend or foe. All they know is that something is damaging any structures and things left on new terra by the "threats" (the colonists that left).

Stormy  :op2:  
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 17, 2005, 09:30:33 PM
hmmm I mearly explained how it would work according to other post.  the blight could mutate lol.  And become the bio parts for the savants :P.

Any way Is there going to be any tie to the New terra colony or just to the ship that was launch when ever.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 17, 2005, 09:47:15 PM
Possibly. I'm not saying anything. This information will come at a later time B). So, you were talking about the blight MUTATING... Hmm that could be interesting, but I doubt it would work. The bio-parts are man-made and are made in a certain way that the circuts go here and this goes there. Since the blight is a non-sentinent being as I stated above, I highly doubt this will work.

Stormy :op2:
Summary:
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Axalon on October 17, 2005, 11:49:44 PM
From MPF.avi (Plymouth ending cinematic)

Frost (Savant): [after the launch thing] "We remain behind, the last tennants of a world no longer fit for human habitation. Our biological computing elements will melt with the microbe and BECOME ONE WITH IT. The planet itself will become one mind, with vast powers of thought. As you journey to your new world, we will dream of you, our creators, dream for you, and send you those dreams as our gift, blueprints for a new world of wonders. And though our voice will fade with time, know that when you look into the sky, we will always be here, and you will always be in our thoughts."

I don't want to flame you or anything, but unless your story outline completely ignores the premise of the Plymouth story arc, you might want to rethink your outline.

(However, if it does, and you solely focus on, say, the Eden story arc, which IMO wouldn't be a wise choice, please disregard my arguments.)

Again, I'm not trying to flame anybody, I'm just arguing my point.

-----------------------------------------------

Oh and Freeza, I found out why they didn't go to Mars. According to the OP1 intro (cheesy music and all), they feared of other potential meteorite impacts on other planets, so they searched beyond the solar system. Sorry, no direct quote this time...yet.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: CK9 on October 18, 2005, 12:03:39 AM
figgures someone would use the movie files that don't appear on the downloads as an argument, heh
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 18, 2005, 12:16:15 AM
Well since this game isnt going to be a extention of op2 but rather a clever off shoot of some info of another space ship there is basicly little tie to the New terra colonies or the blight.  Having the blight in op3 would make much sence.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 18, 2005, 11:33:25 AM
Quote
And though our voice will fade with time
- You forgot this as well.

That's an important key. I have listened to the plymouth ending sequence and have considered it but there is definatly more than one way to interpret this statement. Becoming one with the blight doesn't have to mean that the Savant's and the Blight Microbe's wills become one. Stormy has stated ten million times already that the blight is the name given to the outbreak of a genetically altered microbe. Microbes don't have a will (as we know it). The react the things based on various criteria, but there is no will.

However, Freeza has posed a potential interpretation. The Savant computers will be severly hampered without it's protein cores. However, microbes are made of various compounds, including proteins. So the microbes could potentially be used to bridge certain gaps. This not only explains the "merging" of the computer with the microbe but also allows for other possibilities.

Becoming one mind could mean a million and one things. They could simply be understanding that they will no longer function and will cease to exist becoming part of the cold rock on which they were built. Remember, planets, while seemingly lifeless upon themselves are very much lively. The movements within then (for planets with a liquid core such as new Terra), the movement of tectonic plates, etc. This is all part of what makes a planet alive.

Quote
Our biological computing elements will melt with the microbe and BECOME ONE WITH IT
Could mean very simply that the biological components will become one with the microbe because the microbe is consuming it. When you eat a chicken, the chicken becomes one with you. It becomes a part of you. It doesn't mean that you and the chicken now share the same thoughts.

Quote
I don't want to flame you or anything, but unless your story outline completely ignores the premise of the Plymouth story arc, you might want to rethink your outline.

There is no flaming in your post so I can appreciate your concern with that interpretation. So thanks! :) However, all of the story from Outpost 2 has been considered and a lot of thought has been put into it. A lot of the ending cinematics are left up to interpretation (not necesarily what I stated above. The above is just an example).

Quote
figgures someone would use the movie files that don't appear on the downloads as an argument, heh
What does this mean?


Quote
Well since this game isnt going to be a extention of op2

If it wasn't the continuation of Outpost 2 we would have left it as simply Outpost: Genesis. I didn't say that the story centered around the Frontier, just simply that the Frontier plays a large part in the story.

And that said, I leave that as well up to interpretation.

I really need to sit down some time and finish the new version of the outline. I've been kinda pushing it to the backburner lately... I've just had so much to do and so much on my mind. The adult life... ugh. It can really REALLY suck sometimes!
 
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: CK9 on October 18, 2005, 01:06:04 PM
it means what it says.  The OP2 movie sequences are not in the download version, and someone used them for an argument, something I've been wait for for a while :P
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Leviathan on October 18, 2005, 01:28:47 PM
All the videos and music from outpost 2 are on the site for download.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 18, 2005, 02:02:00 PM
Hmmm OP3 is OP3 but is it about the other ship that left earth due to evidence you provided.  There for it would not be a continuation (extenstion as i put it) of the op2 story but a story that is paralle to it.  Its still OP3 because its not new terra and its not like op1 where you have to save earth.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 18, 2005, 09:31:11 PM
Well, Freeza, I guess that's a reasonable deduction but that's not quite the path that we've taken.

I'll leave it at that for now because I need to finish the new version of the outline soon.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Axalon on October 19, 2005, 12:03:52 AM
Quote
However, Freeza has posed a potential interpretation. The Savant computers will be severly hampered without it's protein cores. However, microbes are made of various compounds, including proteins. So the microbes could potentially be used to bridge certain gaps. This not only explains the "merging" of the computer with the microbe but also allows for other possibilities.

I think that is what the novella suggested (at least, my interpretation of it). I am aware that the blight is a terraforming microbe gone bad, but it is never explained how it does its work. And the novella conjectured that the Savants in the Eden Advanced Lab may have mingled with the Blight (I think in the novella it stated they detected the same proteins in the Blight that are found in Savants). I know it does sound far-fetched, but maybe the Blight is evolving by absorbing the boptronic portions of the Savants (similar to how organelles developed in cells, by absorption of smaller cells and using them to power the larger cell [mitochondrion]). We'll see how that turns out with a little more reearch into it.

And as for me having stated that I don't mean to flame anyone, even though I (and you) thought that there wasn't really any aggression, I've learned that some people on other communities *cough*apple.slashdot.org*cough* are a bit touchy and may misinterpret things, so I like to be on the safe side.

Anyway, back on topic. I'm actually more concerned on the engine development than the story at this point in time. With a developed story, but no engine, there's no game, just an interesting novella. With a complete engine, you have a game of sorts, and a shell of a game is better than no game at all. Besides, there are more free-thinkers than programmers (me knowing only simple console C++ [I still don't get pointers]), therefore the story is overall less of a headache than debugging a full 3d engine. In other words, story == lower priority for the time being.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 19, 2005, 01:09:26 PM
The blight microbe is as dangerous as it is because it was developed to break down the hydrogen bonds within certain compounds. It's able to be so specific because it was genetically engineered. This actually was stated in the Eden Novella.

Also, the research into the 'Blight' microbe stems from the terraforming research form OUTPOST. In order to get Terraforming technology, a genetically altered terraforming microbe needed to be researched (extensively at that) before anything else really could be accomplished (e.g., the necessary facilities to make the process safe).

Anyway, in essence, the microbe really isn't absorbing the bio-components of the savants, it's breaking them down and using certain molecular compunds for food (what they are I couldn't tell you). So it wouldn't really end up becoming sentient like the Savant. Basically you'd have a big biological mess where the protien cores for the Savant's used to be.

However, I can see that it is this 'mess' that makes it possible for the microbes to coincidentally form the necessary bridges for the Savant's reasoning facilities to come back online to some sort of degree.

Good initial argument though! :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 19, 2005, 01:34:48 PM
Eithere way you look at it the savants and microbes appear to be linked to gether in making the savants more dangerous or more anti social.  The microbes would not blend with the savants but just make them loss some of the humanity or ability to think correctly.

But I don think there is going to be a blight on "BOB" is there
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on October 21, 2005, 10:48:16 AM
Quote
The microbes would not blend with the savants but just make them loss some of the humanity or ability to think correctly.

That is exactly right.  And I like the "Lose their humanit" bit because that pretty much works.

As far as the blight on Bob, you're right. The Blight doesn't make an entrance on Bob.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 21, 2005, 01:00:49 PM
Now when placing buildings in OP3 are you going to have the buildings to just point in one direction like they are in OP2 or is there going to be a option to point them north south east west?

And will the Tubes run in straight lines and use right angles.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: DragonLord on October 21, 2005, 07:33:37 PM
heh maybe we should seperate the theological debate into a new thread? :D

can't resist the temptation:

from plymouth 12:
Quote
The Link was shattered before conclusive results were generated, but before that, we discovered that the Blight provided a medium into which our biological components could be merged and endlessly replicated. The Savants there would be destroyed, but part of their being was incorporated into the Blight's biomass, where it could replicate through the deep rocks, organize anew, and be reborn.
yes I know it seems impossible that AIs would merge with some stupid microbe but this is science fiction, it has to be unreal in parts. Oh and they don't merge, the microbes just form a nice medium, like plants on our world provide a medium for us to life in (oxygen and energy)

Freeza's interpretation won't work because this little snippet from the novella:
Quote
The pod looked fragile, but Frost assured her it would be heat-shielded enough to preserve the Savant's biological components during reentry. Its mechanical parts would be destroyed on impact, but that was of no concern.
so it's the biological parts that they need to survive, not the biological parts (they are just for interfacing with the other systems I bet.)

Links to the last 2 chapters of the plymouth storyline: they explain it all there:Plymouth 12 (http://wiki.outpostuniverse.net/Plymouth_12_-_Breakaway)    Plymouth epilogue (http://wiki.outpostuniverse.net/Plymouth-Epilogue)
oh and what's with all the evil savants stuff? need another enemy or something? :D
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on October 21, 2005, 07:57:03 PM
evil savants was just ideas
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Stormy on October 21, 2005, 09:20:33 PM
Quote
From MPF.avi (Plymouth ending cinematic)

Frost (Savant): [after the launch thing] "We remain behind, the last tennants of a world no longer fit for human habitation. Our biological computing elements will melt with the microbe and BECOME ONE WITH IT. The planet itself will become one mind, with vast powers of thought. As you journey to your new world, we will dream of you, our creators, dream for you, and send you those dreams as our gift, blueprints for a new world of wonders. And though our voice will fade with time, know that when you look into the sky, we will always be here, and you will always be in our thoughts."

I don't want to flame you or anything, but unless your story outline completely ignores the premise of the Plymouth story arc, you might want to rethink your outline.

(However, if it does, and you solely focus on, say, the Eden story arc, which IMO wouldn't be a wise choice, please disregard my arguments.)

Again, I'm not trying to flame anybody, I'm just arguing my point.

-----------------------------------------------

Oh and Freeza, I found out why they didn't go to Mars. According to the OP1 intro (cheesy music and all), they feared of other potential meteorite impacts on other planets, so they searched beyond the solar system. Sorry, no direct quote this time...yet.
I know what you were saying, I kept telling the other people this, and we somewhat got it incorperated. So, don't worry about stressing that; I've already stressed it enough. Yes it says the planet itself will become one mind with vast powers of thought, but... Heh, what if the savant telling this is wrong! It's reasoning elements were destroyed to an extent.

Lol, in a sense this is about both the eden and plymouth stories together :heh:

Stormy :op2:
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on November 07, 2005, 09:00:02 PM
Quote
Yes it says the planet itself will become one mind with vast powers of thought
That depends on how it's interpreted. I've already stated my piece above and find no reason to repeat it now.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on November 14, 2005, 04:20:43 PM
OMG i thought we were over this whole savant thing lol.  I think its pretty much pointless to worry about the savants of op2.  Just for the fact that the only tie to op2 is saving humanity and leaving earth for a new home and what not lol.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Betaray on November 15, 2005, 09:07:44 PM
voice will fade with time, well if we think, what would their voice be? the radio transmitter left on new terra

now were talking about intersteller distances here, so of corse the radio signal would degrade over the vast distance, plus degradation in the transmitter, even though its hardened its systems can not last forever

 the proteen cores in the microbe might be able to interface with the transmitter (it was designed by savants so it would know how to do it, you guys forget, those computers are thousands of times smarter than us) but they would not be able to change the metabolic state of the microbe, so it would continue to comsume, just like we can manipulate our cells (ie makeing muscle cells expand and contract) but we cant change their matabilism

frost says that their biological computeing elements will meld with the microbe and become one with it, their biological computing elements are what make the savant computer savant, the rest is mostly perifial and sustanance for the bio elements

like I stated before, the savants are way smarter than us, and when they form the link (like they did when they designed the microbe) they would know what happoned to their bio elements inside the microbe, so when the frost says that the planet will become a vast computer, I dont see any reasion why anyone would deny it

even if it dosnt make logical sence, we can still use the same reasion that we did for the mars landing reasion

thats the outpost 2 story, wether you like it or not, deal with it

also, this may have some implacations with op3, even though the blight may not directly be involved with the game, having a planet sized computer continuelly send radio signals to you would defonatly help with any reashurch that may be needed, now later in the game you would get less of that otherwordly help, because of the transmitter dyeing, and mabe the soler systems becomeing farther from eachother on the glatic plane

I dont know, its sci fi, so do whatever the hell you want
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Freeza-CII on November 18, 2005, 04:50:51 PM
OMG LETS STOP THIS.
To much repeating ourselves and running in circles.

As far as I know there is no tie to the savant and blight of new terra.  In fact I believe there not in the same system.  There for no Blight Savant combo will contact the colony of "BOB".  there its over lets all have some cake :).

Now I have a Question The ship the left (the OP3 ship) Did it go in the same direction of the op2 ship or did it go else where to enhance its chances of humanity surviving.  I beleive the the spliting of the directions of the ships would be more resonable to save humanity.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Betaray on November 18, 2005, 04:54:05 PM
what do you mean a different direction?

the ship went in the direction in wich its sensors determioned that they would have the best probility of finding an earth like planet

btw, if you read the noliva, you would know that there is a tie, thats the point that York was makeing, but your right lets move on
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on November 19, 2005, 07:48:06 PM
Question all, did the OP3 ship from New Terra have a name (I don't remember one)? If not, would Conestoga II be suitable?

Quote
Now I have a Question The ship the left (the OP3 ship) Did it go in the same direction of the op2 ship or did it go else where to enhance its chances of humanity surviving. I beleive the the spliting of the directions of the ships would be more resonable to save humanity.
Um... I'm not sure how to answer this one because I'm not exactly sure what the question is.

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the ship went in the direction in wich its sensors determioned that they would have the best probility of finding an earth like planet.

It would be highly unlikely and very improbably to find an Earth-like planet. That was the whole premise behind the OUTPOST series. So they would, instead of looking for an earth-like planet, they would be more apt to look for mildly hostile planet to land on and then work with what they've got. Dynamix kinda took OUTPOST and ran with it a bit. I, along with stormy, TH300 and Zanco have decided to bring OUTPOST 3 back toward what the original game's story was (while not at all forgetting about OP2's story and remaining in the RTS genre) which is also why we've decided that Conestoga II was not in search of an Earth-like planet. Keep in mind that it can take hundreds of years to travel to a star, even one that's nearby and the original Conestoga was built around the year 2045ad. OP2's scientists did not come up with a faster-than-light alternative so the passengers aboard Conestoga II will also be in the same predicament.

I'll be so bold as to state that there is a particular reason why Conestoga II (if that's the name we decide to run with) landed on 'Bob'.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: Betaray on November 19, 2005, 07:52:52 PM
well of corse they arnt going to land on an earth like planet, but when it was launched they were optamistic and they were looking for one, it even states that in the post reshurch summery for sensor systems

you guys should really read every nook an crany of op2, or else there will be diviations in story
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on November 19, 2005, 08:29:28 PM
Dynamix is the one that deviated from the story. I explained above that OP3 will rely heavily on the stories from both OP2 AND OUTPOST. It seems that A LOT of people forget about OUTPOST.

So the sensors for looking for Earth-like planets is a nice touch but is, in essence, a useless feature as it's highly unlikely that a planet like that will be found. The colony ships are launched to a particular star system. They don't drift between them looking for the right planet. There's only enough fuel for one trip and that's it. If you made a mistake, you're screwed.

Dynamix forgot that but I didn't and I would hope that other people would agree with me on this one. Granted, the game is sci-fi but it's supposed to be based on science fact. We do not have the capacity to put people into suspended animation and the people aboard Conestoga were not in suspended animation: they were in a state of 'slow sleep' which is close but not the same.

Conestoga II was based upon the designs of Conestoga... there's no way they would have been able to design a propulsion system for Conestoga II that would enable them to drift from star system to star system within 100 years. There are  A LOT of inconsistencies in that part of the story for OUTPOST 2.

While OP3 may not be 'perfect' to some people, you also need to understand that OUTPOST 2 was not perfect either and Dynamix introduced a lot of problems. I won't go into detail about them right now because it's beyond the scope of this reply and even this thread but I would be happy to send you an e-mail with all of the inconsistencies introduced in OUTPOST 2.
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: zigzagjoe on November 20, 2005, 03:00:02 PM
i would have to say this is a major rtfm moment here. easiest thing to do is take wt the novela and movies says as gospel and leave it at that.

 i'm half tempted to move this to the debate forum at this rate...
Title: Outpost: Genesis Info Leak
Post by: leeor_net on November 20, 2005, 09:13:04 PM
I think you have a good point.

I'll put it this way: Our minds are essentially made up and the story has been outlined. There will be no major changes to that outline. It's not a matter of refining it and I as well as the rest of the team will be calling on everybody here to help with the refinement process.

Of course, if there's something terribly terribly wrong than by all means, say something about it. What we want to accomplish is an awesome story to back up an awesome game. That's our goal and I want to make sure that everyone is involved in that.