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Projects & Development => Projects => Outpost 2 Mapper => Topic started by: BlackBox on December 14, 2004, 07:11:47 PM

Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on December 14, 2004, 07:11:47 PM
Here is a preliminary screenshot of the OP2Mapper 2.0 with the new project dialog box open. The map being shown is cm01.map (no, editing doesn't work yet)

(http://312productions.xfir.net/mapperss1.jpg)

That's all for now.... ;)  
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: plymoth45 on December 14, 2004, 07:53:04 PM
Coming along nicely :) Once you have it finished then i will start making maps again, as i had problems with getting my maps finished in a reasonable ammount of time, i hope that this version will help out :)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: gpgarrettboast on December 15, 2004, 10:12:27 AM
yay! :) I can't wait till it's done. :P
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on December 15, 2004, 11:04:52 AM
Gonna be Great :)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: selfdestruct on December 15, 2004, 11:20:47 AM
that looks great , i know that this is a long shot but can u now minipulate the ai now for single and multi or that is too complex to do?
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: HaXtOr on December 15, 2004, 11:29:57 AM
im actualy working on ai code that can be used on any new map. I can get the ai to take over mines with just a vf and a sf.  just a few problems to solf and massice testing before i release the code
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on December 15, 2004, 02:48:41 PM
It probably won't have AI editing capabilities (yet). It WILL be able to produce basic LoS / LR multiplayer DLL's, and maybe colony games (with little or no computer AI). This part is pretty much "full feature", you can control almost all aspects for the player and map (the units, beacons, even tube/wall segments, day/night, veh. lights, starting resources, etc), at least for making basic multiplayer levels.

For AI, I'll probably do it like most modern RTS'es (they have default "AI Triggers" which are libraries of AI functions that by default get enabled, and you can override them with your own triggers if you want). I'll either use an event-based tree system (condition/action, like most games), or a scripting language. I'm leaning toward the tree because it is a lot easier to learn to use (targeted at people who have little or no programming experience). However, based on time constraints I might have a scripting language to implement more complex routines (for more interesting AI).

Again though, don't expect AI editing right now, but it will come sometime (at a later version).

The editor WILL have a techtree editor (reason not so much for ease of editing, the tech tree format is really simple to understand, but for time (make it faster to create researches, and make the linkages between a research and it's prerequisites more obvious - again probably a tree structure).

As for map editing features, expect ones like copy and paste, minimaps, etc.

The program will have a project/workspace type of setup, where you have a panel to pick different files to edit in your project (like the MS VB / C++ IDE's) so you can edit files together in tandem (place units directly to the map window so you can see immediately how they will look in game), etc.

As for other features... I don't know yet.

Leave any wanted features here.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: The_Blight on December 15, 2004, 06:32:04 PM
As a n00b to the OP2mapping, I have no clue what's already in and what's not, as I have simply not had the time to look at it due to school work and being as ill as a dog...

- Tile Flood, Select the tile of your choice, Ctrl click inside work space and the entire map is filled with a "basic" layer of a one sort ground type.

- Water :)

- Like someone above explained, maybe rig maps with AI Triggers, so they'll put defences at specific points, different attack routes could be defined (eg frontal, backdoor, 2 sided)

--> as I think of it, the game has a waypoint sytem, one I rarely use, is there no way to put standard waypoints on a map, which playerX @ LocationX will follow ?

- A bit OT: Once a decent AI can be created, Skirmish battles can be fought against AI's...

- Cliff - row builder, click at start pos, and drag till end pos, cliff pieces get put, in a fitting way..


Please don't feel offended by me asking for impossible things, this was just a brainstorm and if it's not possible then it's impossible, but this is just my 2.00 ç...

 
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Eddy-B on December 16, 2004, 01:05:54 PM
Im not working on this editor, but i can reply to your queries:

Quote
Tile Flood, Select the tile of your choice, Ctrl click inside work space and the entire map is filled with a "basic" layer of a one sort ground type
i think this is already a feature of the old editor.
Quote
Water
.. OP2 doesn't have water.. and no, it cannot be added (unless you really hack into the exe BIG TIME - and i think nobody here's looking forward to that :P)
Quote
Like someone above explained, maybe rig maps with AI Triggers, so they'll put defences at specific points, different attack routes could be defined (eg frontal, backdoor, 2 sided)
..well , this could be done, but it would require a lot of coding on 'our' part and also an understanding of a sort-of basic scripting language on your part to be able to set up parameters for this.. but yes, it could be done, and i believe it will be done, although not any time real soon.

About the waypoints: they are used internally (for AI) also, but any unit (or group of..) can have a set of (max.8) waypoints.

Quote
Once a decent AI can be created, Skirmish battles can be fought against AI's
..working on it :D   New campaign coding was started about 2 weeks ago. Input is welcome. PM me

Quote
Please don't feel offended
.. non taken !
Quote
this was just a brainstorm and if it's not possible then it's impossible
Just keep it coming !!
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on December 16, 2004, 01:25:48 PM
can hardly wait :)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: TH300 on December 16, 2004, 02:05:57 PM
Quote
Quote
Tile Flood, Select the tile of your choice, Ctrl click inside work space and the entire map is filled with a "basic" layer of a one sort ground type
i think this is already a feature of the old editor.
this function, that is already in the mapper, isn't enough.
The filled area should be limitable with selection or certain tiles, so that not the entire map becomes filled. And it should be filled with a variety of tiles (not only one).
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on December 16, 2004, 06:23:24 PM
for money pie map the morale is set to 99%
u should be able to set the morale level.
can u set number of people in colony? kids, workers, sci;s
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Tellaris on December 16, 2004, 08:59:18 PM
Easy Cliff/Mountain creation WITHOUT putting each insgnificant tile in one by one would be nice.   Same with other featuers, such as craters, rocks, ect...




Any ETA on when it'll be done?   IE. after December?   Next June?
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: PlayingOutpost0-24 on December 17, 2004, 02:32:27 PM
Quote
Easy Cliff/Mountain creation WITHOUT putting each insgnificant tile in one by one would be nice.

yea... mabi.-.. the tiles shud be put into categories like  "South Slope" "North Slope" and then an autotool that creates a cliff by randomizing these groups...


eg. i put down a cliff with autotool at the X
Code: [Select]

          __North Slope #3
         |X| East slope #5
West slope   South Slope
     #3                #1

Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on December 17, 2004, 02:34:39 PM
Quote
u should be able to set the morale level.
can u set number of people in colony? kids, workers, sci;s
Yeah, when I referred to "resources" that included all this stuff. (Basically anything you can set in the _Player class)

Quote
Any ETA on when it'll be done? IE. after December? Next June?
No clue. It won't be done in time for christmas or anything, but I'm sure it won't take until june.... (what you see in the screenshot is all that's implemented in the program. lol)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Eddy-B on December 17, 2004, 05:59:43 PM
Quote
what you see in the screenshot is all that's implemented in the program
.. well , at least you got it to display a map already.. that's one function down, several hundreds still to go.. lol :P  
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on February 13, 2005, 04:11:26 PM
Got a lot more work done on the editor recently.

It can now show a tile picker (lol), and is close to being able to edit tiles.

I'm also adding new modes to make it easier to edit stuff on the map.

Here's a screenshot of the editor in "Cell Type Editing Mode": (green = passable, red=impassable)
(http://312productions.xfir.net/mappercelledit.jpg)

Also note, the nice rebars and menus.

Hopefully you're drooling for the editor to come  ;)  
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Highlander on February 13, 2005, 08:16:24 PM
Maybe you should make the editor water proof.. ? you know, just in case... :P

*feels the early sensation of massive amounts of drool in the back of his mouth*
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: plymoth45 on February 13, 2005, 11:31:41 PM
Will we still have to make our own dlls hacker? or is this version going to have dll capability in it?
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: nesfreak1 on February 14, 2005, 03:22:54 AM
First off, I'd like to say thank you for all your hard work, and secondly, the idea about randomizing the tiles that your puting in, under a general type of course is a great idea.  I think that the best map editor i ever used was the one for StarCraft.  If you could do something like that for OP2, I'd love it.  thanks again guys and gals
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: TH300 on February 14, 2005, 06:08:00 AM
Nice, can't wait for it.

And that is exactly the mode, I was looking for.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on February 14, 2005, 07:39:03 AM
Great

I think i wont be the main mapper after this is done :)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on February 14, 2005, 08:23:10 AM
Lol. The fact that it will be complex? (Well not really, I'm trying to make it as easy as possible)
Or the fact that it will be so easy to make good maps that anyone can do it? ;)

To answer Plymoth45's question, yes it will probably have basic multiplayer DLL capabilities at the time of release. (Think static, no-AI maps, a good example of one is Pie Chart). Basically it will allow you to place buildings for players and set things like their starting amounts of ore, disasters, etc.
I'll try to implement stuff for all the five gametypes in multiplayer (well, Land Rush might not be right away, since that's the most awkward to implement -- you have to check that the player bases are all set up before you can create the victory condition).

As far as colony games / campaigns, that probably won't come until later.
(The editor won't even allow you to create those yet)

The way it's probably going to work is a tree structure for the different player attributes. Units for the players will be placed directly onto the map.

The editor will also have a techtree editor as well, and 'project' capabilities so you can group maps, scripts, and techtrees together.

Regarding the starcraft editor: It's probably not going to use a tree view like on the left, but in the map editor view there will be a toolbar, where you click different buttons to engage different tools. (Eg. you click a picture of red and green sheets and it pops up a cell type editor options box, and the map has the red and green colors superimposed)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Eddy-B on February 14, 2005, 11:51:09 AM
Quote
the idea about randomizing the tiles that your puting in, under a general type of course is a great idea
I think randomizing tiles will have the opposite effect, since tiles have to be selected that match up, or otherwise the map can just be put in the category "UGLY".  But> you'll need to ask the "prof" mappers about this, i don't randomizing is such a good idea.

To hacker: making a passable/impassable screen is a good improvement !
As for single-player maps (AI) ... i'll come help you on that later. I still stick with the scripting idea.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Tellaris on February 14, 2005, 03:42:28 PM
Perhaps in a future addition, or maybe it'll make it into the inital version, if it can create its own DLLs, I imagine it wouldn't be TOO hard to at least have it create basic building data...
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Betaray on February 14, 2005, 05:17:50 PM
just wondering, will this one allow you to put in and control lava/blight?

cause I have a pretty cool idea for a game, where the map has 4 volcanos, and lava or blight very slowly fills the map, so you have to work in smaller and smaller areas, and as you get towrds the center the ore gets worse, I think that would be pretty challanging, but make the lava/blight go very very slow
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on February 14, 2005, 08:48:08 PM
I dunno about lava / blight, (at least not till later), they're both very directional and it's quite a bit of work to set up where you want lava to be able to flow or not flow. (I think, I'll have to check)

Baikon: it will support basic placement for multiplayer, and you could create unit placement for singleplayer. (The unit data will be stored in a separate file which the script imports, so you can use it later on).

Any other suggestions you would like to see now?
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Drakmar on February 14, 2005, 09:14:03 PM
How far along is the editor? Will it be open source? (So some of us can try to improve it?)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on February 15, 2005, 04:12:42 PM
Its still gonna be some time...

I dont think it will or should be open source :/
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on February 15, 2005, 06:22:48 PM
Yea, I can't really say when it will be done. (And I don't even want to guess, because giving dates usually gets me into troubles :P)

And no, I don't plan on making this open source. (Testing so far seems to yield few bugs that are hard to trace down, and I generally test it in "chunks" so the bugs from one part of the editor are usually fixed before I start on another).
I don't really want to release this to the open public, because I've spent too much time on it (and I don't like the thoughts of everyone snooping in my source code). (Nor do I have a CVS server to deploy anything on, to prevent people from running away with their own 'brands' of a mapper, which may or may not work right).
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Hooman on February 15, 2005, 07:10:13 PM
Yes, I agree it should stay closed source. Especially during development. I can't stand having tons of spin off editors to sort through and choose from.

But yeah, it should be great.  (thumbsup)  
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on February 15, 2005, 08:33:38 PM
Here's another picture, this time showing the map view and the tileset beside it. :P
(http://312productions.xfir.net/mappertileset.jpg)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on February 16, 2005, 02:56:12 AM
ooo editing and making maps on my 1600x1200 res is gonna be fun :)

mayb if some1 could make some better icons they could be used instead of the windows ones? jazz it up a bit, make it more op2 :)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: nesfreak1 on February 16, 2005, 03:48:57 AM
ok, what do you think of this, since you don't like the idea of randomizing the tiles according to a specific tile type that your laying, puting everything that has to do with one tile type (ie: sandy dunes) in a sub menu so that you don't have to search for all of those different tiles and walls and wreckage.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Hooman on February 16, 2005, 03:57:18 AM
Actually, they're largely already arranged like this by tileset. (See "well0002" in the screenshot above.)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on February 16, 2005, 04:00:30 AM
Yeah i was thinking that, would be nice if custom ones could be loaded or whatevea. have ones for volcano parts etc.

also wen map editing i have a map file as a pallet where i copy and paste sections out of, if i could load this in the tile set and be able 2 copy a section out of it - it might be better than loading the 2 maps but not sure.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: neo_drol on February 22, 2005, 10:14:56 AM
Quote
mayb if some1 could make some better icons they could be used instead of the windows ones? jazz it up a bit, make it more op2

Maybe i can make some buttons :P  If a .JPG or any other image format is alright  :)  
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on February 22, 2005, 11:02:59 AM
Well save your originals as BMPs. We dont want to lose quality.
Send them to hacker and if he wants he may want to compress them to save space.

I allways use BMP's in my VB projets to keep quality.

Anyway great if you can help on the graphics side of things.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on February 22, 2005, 02:01:19 PM
Alright, guidelines for icons:

Toolbar icons MUST be 16x16 and 24-bit or less colors (32bit are nice but aren't really useful because VB doesn't support them).
They MUST be in BMP, ICO, GIF, or some other format suitable for icons. JPEG is unacceptable. (BMP or ICO is preferred, since I can't convert from anything but the most common formats. This also means don't go sending me your photoshop files).

Main icons like the application icon should be similar but a 32x32 icon would also be needed. all other rules apply above.

Also, a new splash screen would be nice. Keep it about the same size as the current mapper's splashscreen (a little bigger is fine, but not real big, and no smaller). Don't put any text like "Loading" or version numbers or anything, if you want to have it say OP2Mapper or Outpost 2 Map Editor that's ok. Keep in mind the "Loading" text will be in about the same position as it is currently, and same color too. (So it should be readable). The upper right of the new mapper splash also has a version number in red.

BMP is defo the best format to do this in, but JPEG (if you keep the jpeg quality high, like 7 or higher) is okay too for the splash.

I would prefer BMP's for all of this stuff however, since I may need to reduce colors/edit palettes/and need to put them all into a single image.

For the toolbar images, do not use magenta (R:255 G:0 B:255) as a color, or it will not show up in the toolbar. (I use that color to mark the transparent areas).

Again, thanks, if you're able to do this.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: neo_drol on February 22, 2005, 03:37:02 PM
I will give it a try  :P

I already made two splashscreens;
(http://www.www.outpostuniverse.net/images/hosted/splashscreen.gif)
(http://www.www.outpostuniverse.net/images/hosted/splashscreen2.gif)

Maybe you had some other things planned on this screen, please tell me :)  Because I can easely change everything. ( lettertype, background, colors etc.)

Also, hacker, I need to know exactly which buttons I need to make, and what the function is of those buttons so I can make a button that looks like it.

 
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Betaray on February 22, 2005, 06:53:42 PM
btw, mabe try to put in a minimap screen or somthing that can show you the whole map, it will allow you to see how the general layout of the entire map would look like and allow less experenced map makers (like myself) configure the maps easier
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: BlackBox on March 14, 2005, 08:01:43 PM
Here's another update, this time with unit placement:

(http://312productions.xfir.net/mapperunitplace1.jpg)

The unit placement engine is far from complete right now but it's pretty flexible.

It uses a format similar to CSV to read data on units like their size, name, positioning of tubes, etc.
(This makes it easy for mod makers to change characteristics about units, etc).

currently the formatting of these files looks like this:

Code: [Select]
;Structures

28,"Command Center",3,2,2,2
58,"Tokamak",2,2
.
.
INCLUDE "vehicles.tbl"
and so on.

The unit engine will store unit records in a separate file alongside the map, which can be imported by the scripts made by the editor, or by C++ files that are part of a mission.

oh, btw. Minimap: There will be one. the code isn't done yet, and I don't plan to finish it soon (it's not the highest on the priority list right now). It will be in the initial v2 release though.

Interested enough yet? :P
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Leviathan on March 15, 2005, 04:19:24 AM
It can import and export C++ code into it?

Can you create units for 6 players and AI ?
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Eddy-B on March 15, 2005, 01:12:25 PM
Looks cool hacker !
>> i hope your not putting me out of a job !   B)  
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Punboy on March 15, 2005, 04:09:55 PM
Make it opensource under the GPL. That way we can all contribute stuff like bugfixes, improvements, etc and submit patches to you. Just... beg and plead at people NOT to fork.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: Hooman on March 15, 2005, 04:20:24 PM
You mean Hacker might write bugs?  :o

Nonsense! That could never happen.  :heh:

Quote
>> i hope your not putting me out of a job ! 
Can I be put out of a job? I could use some more time for school.  :(
J/k, I've got way too much to try out on here.
 
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: neutrino on March 25, 2005, 08:45:54 PM
I'd like to see a more intuitive map editor. A filling tool for plains. It would also be great to draw cliffs without having to edit it tiles by tiles.

This intuitive map editor would simply require that you define presets of tiles that can be used together to keep the graphical countinuity of the image. I hope someone can get to work on this.
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: zigzagjoe on March 27, 2005, 10:26:14 AM
looks good hacker! i second the concept of a minmap though. it is rather hard to make a map with features relatvie to each other without a minimap.

and here are the pics:

(http://zigzagjoe.no-ip.com/312productions.xfir.net/mapperss1.jpg)
(http://zigzagjoe.no-ip.com/312productions.xfir.net/mappertileset.jpg)
(http://zigzagjoe.no-ip.com/312productions.xfir.net/mapperunitplace1.jpg)
(http://zigzagjoe.no-ip.com/312productions.xfir.net/mappercelledit.jpg)
(http://zigzagjoe.no-ip.com/312productions.xfir.net/example.gif)

(they were broke by the forum move)
Title: A 'taste' of OP2Mapper 2.0
Post by: plymoth45 on April 23, 2005, 11:12:57 PM
Oh, Also, Could we get a mini-map navigation put in some where? I'm starting to get tired of missing the spot i want to be because of having to not see where I am.