Outpost Universe Forums
Outpost Series Games => Outpost 2 Divided Destiny => Topic started by: Nightmare24148 on December 26, 2006, 05:57:00 PM
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Playing through both campaigns, and reading the novellas, who do you think is supposed to the winner?
For example, even though in C&C the two campaigns have separate stories, both times, GDI is the winner.
I think Plymouth is the winner...what do you think?
If you need the novellas:
http://wiki.outpostuniverse.net/Category:Novella (http://wiki.outpostuniverse.net/Category:Novella)
BTW, this needs some work. The Epilogue is incomplete and its not supposed to be the same for both Eden and Plymouth...I remember very well something about Axen turning to the assembled survivors of Eden and Plymouth and leading them to hope.
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I be leave the general consensus is that Eden is the one to launch the starship.
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Actually, according to the story, Plymoth launched the spaceship. At the end of one of the stories Axen took over the command codes to Pymoths defenses with the help of his savant. He did this to keep a massive eden attack held back long enough for plymoth to launch their starship and escape.
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thats only the Plymouth novella, in the Eden version Eden is the one who launches.
There are 2 endings, he is asking which ending is considered canon, and I be leave it has been asked before and Eden won.
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Well consider (I just know these things off the top of my head and looking QUICKLY at the novellas again):
SIMILARITIES:
-Echo Van Dozier dies
-Axen Moon stays
-Brook Panati leaves
-There is a Resistance Group in Eden, opposed to the Masters
-The Eden Gene Bank is traded for more starship stuff(If I remember correctly)
-Borges dies
DIFFERENCES:
-Of course, Eden or Plymouth can win. Not both.
-In Eden, Echo dies in a fight. Whereas in Plymouth, she dies in the convoy to kill Ply.
-In Plymouth, Emma takes off. In Eden, she is left behind.
-In Eden, a Guard Turret/Axen kills Borges, while in Plymouth, Emma kills him.
Thats all I can think of for now. Ill def have more later :).
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It's tough really..
I feel Plymouth has a better chance of winning because they where more at peace with the planet. Where as Eden was pictured more as germany in WW2 (IE - they cared more about war than about there own people, evidence of that is the Thor Hammer.)
But that's just my view.
Either way, both sides could win, but Sierra never bothered to answer the question of which side truly deserved to win. Canon could be both ways, it just depends on your point of view.
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Wasn't there something in the campaign where Axen (or somebody) sent a convoy full of eden children to plymoths starship? Also the final craft that was launched from pymoth was that RLV that was stolen from the eden spaceport. so in a way... when plymoth got away, part of eden did. but when eden got away... pymoth was scorched...
Personally I liked the plymoth campaign story line. in both versions Axen was on emma's side trying to help out with things. I like the WW reference, thats how I thought of eden; the bad guys.
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In the Campaign mode I've always thought of Eden as the bad guys. After all, they were the ones who pushed ahead with terraforming and ruined relations between the colonies, not to mention creating/releasing the blight to begin with! I know it was a "accidnet" but why create something you're not sure you can control? Especially when you know that it could easily kill people!
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Well only Nguyen and a few...others like Axen were against the project the entire time.
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Not only were Axen and others against it, they didn't even know that Nguyen was developing a super-microbe. That part they didn't find out until the explosion in the Hot Lab, and then in the reconnaissance missions that Eden and Plymouth both took to the original site of Eden.
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In the Campaign mode I've always thought of Eden as the bad guys. After all, they were the ones who pushed ahead with terraforming and ruined relations between the colonies, not to mention creating/releasing the blight to begin with! I know it was a "accidnet" but why create something you're not sure you can control? Especially when you know that it could easily kill people!
Personally, I've always liked Eden. The Plymouthers were always a bit too... Hippy for me. Anyway, as two others have already pointed it, most in Eden had no idea the terraforming experiments were even going on. The "hot labs" were restricted to all but Nguyen and his crew. As was also said, Axen and others that DID know were against his project.
And you're all forgetting a side: What about the Eden Renegades? Though that could technically be the Plymouth storyline, I think they deserved more recognition than they managed to get.
Plymouths story was more gratifying, but I think Eden managed to atone in their own storyline by the end of the game, and even take down the "Masters", who were the "We're going to butcher all non-clones" people. The Masters were really the only people in Eden whom you could say were actually and truely "Evil".
And addressing more of the issue in Prometheus' post, Nguyen didn't even consider the possibilities of the Blight breaking down the bonds in a human body. You can say that he SHOULD'VE, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't. They were certain they could control it.
You can also say that it was, indeed, Plymouth who destroyed inter-colonial relations by shutting down the only link between the two colonies: The Communications Satillite.
Besides, no one who's played the original Outpost can say that they didn't, at one time or another, mess around with Terraforming their planet.
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Agreed plymonth knocked out the comsat not eden true they shouldn't have been messing with that kind of biotech but it was nyugan(i think thats his name) pushing everything so far ahead and eden need i remind you did take plymonths children with them into space rather then leave them as blight fodder
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And don't forget Plymouth is the one who converted their RLV program into ballistic missiles...
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Based on the campaign victory movies (after beating mission 12 ) I think that Plymouth is supposed to win. Their victory movie is the one that mentions the bioptronic computers merging with the blight.
Agreed plymonth knocked out the comsat not eden true they shouldn't have been messing with that kind of biotech but it was nyugan(i think thats his name) pushing everything so far ahead and eden need i remind you did take plymonths children with them into space rather then leave them as blight fodder
Plymouth took Eden's children with them too. Haven't you played the Plymouth campaign?
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Well, I didn't finished OP2 yet or even read the novellas but in my oppinion Plymouth could be the winner. I was playing Eden's campaign and after playing it for a while I came to the conclusion that Eden wanted to play as God by trying to terraform New Terra (If God decided to make New Terra this way, why we, mortals, had to alter the planet?). And the Blight was the outcome of Eden's arrogance...
I think the ideal ending would be Plymouth escaping New Terra with Eden's children and women and letting the rest of Eden people die there.
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I don't thing God has anything to do with that, you see, not everyone believes on Christian God, or any type of Superior Power (like me).
I suggest, for the good of the community, to anyone not include any kind of religion/belief reference or debate/flaming (MY GOD IS BETTER THAN YOURS thingy).
This is to make OP2/OP/Community neutral and not allied/supporting religion/non-religion or any thing considered outside common sense.
Sorry Giles_F_Ahrun, I'm not picking up on you :heh:
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All right ^_^ *nodnods*
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I think Plymouth should win. They were against terraforming the planet. Soo.. They are the good guys :P
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Good might be a relative term. If you define win/lose based purely on original goals, then I don't think either side won because: Eden did not terraform the planet and make it livable for humans. Plymouth was not able to stay and live in harmony with the planet.
You can say Eden is bad because they relased the blight. But I don't think they intended it. And who is to say that mining the planet and building all those structures won't have some lasting scar on the planet? Although not as big of a threat or as immediate, it will still catch up at some point if humanity continued to grow.
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Well, no matter how you look at this, Eden is the colony with the superior technology.
Doesn't matter if you want to view Eden as the bad guys. They are quite a few steps ahead of Plymouth in technology, and the possibility that Eden are the colony to escape New Terra is quite likely opposed to the opposite scenario.
Come to think of it, Eden is actually more adapted to their world than plymouth is :lol:
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I think they both managed to escape. Will all the resources used on structures and vehicles, both could have easily left the planet
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True, though I'd still place my bet on Eden :P
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I read somewhere that the planet only had resources for one and a third ship. So only one colony could scape
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Yeah but of course in game all the mines have an infinite amount. Come to think of it, there aren't too many games that work like that.
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And it's a question about time.
Doesn't matter if you have an infinite supply of resources from a 1 bar. You will lose to the players with who can gather more resources in less time.
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Doesn't matter if you want to view Eden as the bad guys. They are quite a few steps ahead of Plymouth in technology, and the possibility that Eden are the colony to escape New Terra is quite likely opposed to the opposite scenario.
Plymouth is extremely desperate. And they have spiders. Perhaps what's left from Plymouth's unfinished starship program could be hastily finished, though marginally.
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The projections were made taking resources for structures and units out of the space program resources more than likely
It wouldn't take much to scrape together enough metal from the structures....
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There is no question for me that there are enough resources on New Terra for more than one starship.
As a personal challenge to myself I have completed both campaigns while launching enough modules to build a total of 6 starships for a grand total of 1200 passengers. (I didn't want to go any higher because it would involve multiple spaceports, or holding modules in trucks).
I suspect that even on hard mode you could complete at least two starships.
So in other words, there are more than enough resources to evacuate as many people as necessary before the blight consumes the planet.
I see no reason why both colonies couldn't have survived.
I just love imagining the look on Eden's collective face when they realize that plymoth has simultaneously kicked and saved their behinds. :D
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There is no question for me that there are enough resources on New Terra for more than one starship.
As a personal challenge to myself I have completed both campaigns while launching enough modules to build a total of 6 starships for a grand total of 1200 passengers. (I didn't want to go any higher because it would involve multiple spaceports, or holding modules in trucks).
I suspect that even on hard mode you could complete at least two starships.
So in other words, there are more than enough resources to evacuate as many people as necessary before the blight consumes the planet.
I see no reason why both colonies couldn't have survived.
I just love imagining the look on Eden's collective face when they realize that plymoth has simultaneously kicked and saved their behinds. :D
awesome accomplesment.
As for what prevented Eden's escape after you win as Plymouth, you have to take out a good portion of their base to get to their space port. Kinda silly that you had to steal the RLV. By the time I stole it I could probably have build several starships with the resources I had stored up.
It's possible that one of Eden's outposts was able to finish building their starship after Plymouth destroyed their main base.
Also If they both got away the war would likely continue. The struggle to survive would have left lasting divisions between the colonies. Eden would be pretty pissed about the RLV and all the collateral damage Plymouth caused.
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The answer is: HUMANITY. It doesnt matter who wins as long as someone does. Considering elements of both factions make it out, they all win.
This question is like "Who wins: Orange Juice or Apple Juice?" or "Who wins: A hammer from Michigan or West Virginia?"
This is really splitting hairs, here.
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If there are 2 outcomes to a question, a 3rd won't answer the question ?
I mean, the topics asks for our interpretation of who wins of colony A OR B, then the answer can't be C (C = Humanity in horus' case)
:lol:
Regardless, I still agree with you Horus, it doesn't really matter does it ? Humanity survives in either case.
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Regardless, I still agree with you Horus, it doesn't really matter does it ? Humanity survives in either case.
Yeah, but there is just some differences.
If the "bad" dudes escape, the humanity will be bloody(kill each other, nuke each other) and won't care about anything, but if the "good" dudes escape, humanity will peacful etc.
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There is no question for me that there are enough resources on New Terra for more than one starship.
As a personal challenge to myself I have completed both campaigns while launching enough modules to build a total of 6 starships for a grand total of 1200 passengers. (I didn't want to go any higher because it would involve multiple spaceports, or holding modules in trucks).
I suspect that even on hard mode you could complete at least two starships.
So in other words, there are more than enough resources to evacuate as many people as necessary before the blight consumes the planet.
I see no reason why both colonies couldn't have survived.
I just love imagining the look on Eden's collective face when they realize that plymoth has simultaneously kicked and saved their behinds. :D
Very nice theory,makes you wonder.....
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Regardless, I still agree with you Horus, it doesn't really matter does it ? Humanity survives in either case.
Yeah, but there is just some differences.
If the "bad" dudes escape, the humanity will be bloody(kill each other, nuke each other) and won't care about anything, but if the "good" dudes escape, humanity will peacful etc.
In a way, either faction escaping without the other could be considered bad.
The two colonies seem to represent a split in overall ideals, let us for the sake of simplicity refer to them as Aggressive (Eden) and Passive (Plymoth).
Eden's aggressive nature, essentially unrestrained by the more moderate elements that left their colony for plymoth, has a tendency to take larger risks, and try to alter a situation by brute force.
This is the kind of thinking leads to a far stronger colony, but also one with more potential to stumble, blinded by arrogance, and their mistakes are all the more devastating because of the power they put into things.
Plymoth on the other hand seems to me to be more passive, not really wanting to make the first move, perhaps a bit more introverted (This is probably why I identify with Plymoth better than Eden). While they are able to deal with trouble when it comes, their passive thinking can leave them unprepared for trouble when it comes, and possibly slower to respond to it when it does.
Evidence for this separation abounds in the story and even in the game.
Eden prefers to develop more powerful weapons and attack with them, plymoth prefers to hinder attackers (EMP, Stickyfoam) or even to capture attacking weapons and use them to reinforce defenses (Spiders).
Eden creates a complex system to shoot down meteors with a giant mazer beam, plymoth just grins and bears it.
Eden's residence focuses on holding more people, plymoth's residence focuses on better protecting its people.
Eden taps dangerous geological forces (magma well), Plymoth just makes do with normal mines
Emma even mentions and summarizes the philosophical differences at one point in the novella.
In short, I contend that neither colony is the best choice to continue humanity on its own.
There are children from the opposite colony on the starship either way, and the fundamental makeup of humanity in the form of the gene bank remains unchanged, but never underestimate social pressures. The philosophy of the winning colony could take many many generations to fully dilute back to moderate levels after being strengthened by its success at saving humanity, and opposing viewpoints weakened by the loss of many of their powerful voices. I think it would be dangerous for humanity to seek a new home with that level of viewpoint restriction.
In fact, the original reason that I first attempted to build more than one starship was that after playing both sides, I considered it unacceptable that either of them be destroyed. Granted that I exploited weaknesses in the game in order to do so (Mines not drying up, and the trick of building multiples of a module before it gets removed from the build menu upon launch), but that is beside the point because real life has even more alternatives, and it is far harder to be restricted to one path. I don't like being forced to choose between two extremes, both of which I know to be wrong. There is always a compromise that will give a better result, even if some preconceived notions have to be bent or broken in order to do so.
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You guys might also be missing out on the fact that it's a game. Just because you can build 12 starships in-game doesn't mean that was how the novella was to be interpreted. In order to make the game fun and challenging, you get to wage high level war with many vechs. You frequently fight battles with far more vechs than are hinted at in the novella. The scale of everything is a little bloated for gameplay.
It wouldn't be much fun if you could only build 12 units and had to save every last scrap of metal to build the starship. Actually, it might be fun to try, but to limit the entire game to this sort of gameplay would not be fun in the long term.
If you read the novella, the question of "Who wins" reads differently than if you look purely at the game.
And to agree with Horus, the point is that there are two factions that cause eachother to rush and compete. You might have more resources available to a single colony, but you're putting all of your eggs into one basket. If the blight over takes the single colony, everybody loses.
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Well in the novellas, Convecs can become Command centers and Cargo Trucks can carry weapons :-P.
But yeah, I also think that there is just enough resources for another one, as Axen Moon wouldn't then try to gather everyone for one last desperate gambit after Plymouth takes off. Remember he assembles the leftover Eden people too...in both campaigns.
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And don't forget Plymouth is the one who converted their RLV program into ballistic missiles...
Ah, but they did that only because they were desperate. Eden was the aggressor.
Anyway..
I consider the Plymouth Campaign to be canon, simply because the story is much better than the Eden Campaign story.
In any case, on who is the good guy, Plymouth as a whole are peace-loving people. The same cannot really be said about Eden.
Eden was also the aggressor, Plymouth the victim.
I think Nguyen wanted to declare war but didn't live to see it happen.
After Nguyen, it was Echo, who became leader with the people of Eden's support. So they can't be all that good. :)
Also, I think the Plymouth story is the 'Good Ending'. Plymouth and Eden forget their differences and launch half of each into space, and the Savants got their mighty Planetmind... presumably, if New Terra doesn't blow up first. :D
Of course, there's no guarantee that the spaceship would ever make it to a new world, considering that Plymouth launched a half-a**ed (sorry, can't think of a better word for this situation) spaceship and have to perform the final touches and tests in space...
In contrast, Eden managed to build a proper spaceship in their Campaign. But did they bring the Savants with them? That wouldn't be so good an ending for the Savants. But then again, maybe they were responsible for the blight.
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For the love of God, if I see one more "LOL EDEN IS EVIL" post I'm going to go to your house and murder you while you sleep!
When I read this thread, all I see is people talking about the PLYMOUTH story. How about you play the Eden campaign and read the story? Then maybe you'll learn that Plymouth raided Eden, kidnapped Eden scientists, and stole Eden technology after Eden had tried to negotiate a peace treay between the two Colonies. Now who's evil? Eden is not made up of Nazis, again if you read the Masters are a minority group who in the end are defeated by Axen with the help of the legitimate government of Eden.
How can you say that Eden started the war, when Plymouth is the rebel colony? Neither colony is "peace loving" or "war hungry". But again, all you play is the Plymouth campaign and ignore the Eden campaign. Plymouth attacks Eden more than Eden attacks Plymouth.
The Eden Story is infinitely better than the Plymouth Campaign. Eden's story has actual stuff happening while the Plymouth Story is about Emma and her broken computer. The Plymouth ending is the "good ending"? There is no "good ending" or "bad ending" in OP2. Either you win the mission, or you lose and your colony is doomed. Besides, "I LIEK IT BETUR LOL" doesn't make it the real story.
Actually, it is the EDEN story in which the Eden and Plymouth survivors band together. The Plymouth ending mentions nothing of the sort, and we are in fact led to believe the war is still being fought on New Terra as Axen has to manually take control of Plymouth's defenses before they get owned by Eden.
Who cares about whether the ending "is good for the Savants"? This is about people, not machines. Eden doesn't even get into all the boring details about the Savants (thankfully). Besides, in either starship, a bunch of Savants are needed for the Command Module, so it doesn't matter how many get left behind and how many don't.
And this should blow your little Uberchristian mind into millions of tiny pieces: Axen laughed and shook his head. "A computer getting religion? I thought only humans were prone to that form of mental illness."
God did not "smite" Eden. God has nothing to do with Outpost 2. And even if God DID smite Eden, isn't God supposed to be loving and forgiving? The God I remember doesn't run around blowing stuff up becasue he feels like it. So please, leave all your fake Christian Zealot crap out of this.
I'm really getting tired of seeing all these posts trying to show how Eden should lose because they're evil when they aren't and, no matter how you look at it, Eden has better technology, meaning they can build a better starship faster. Eden wins.
Besides, I'd think you'd all WANT the Eden story to be the real one, because then Axen gets to kill Echo Van Dozier (AKA Hitler Junior).
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Some points I would like to make:
-None of them are necessarily evil, and the aggressor is always the other colony if you play the campaign games.
-I have read the Eden story, and I indeed liked it quite a bit, but not as much as the Plymoth one. When I read a story, and I imagine this is true of many others, I tend to try to empathize with the characters by visualizing myself in their situation, and for me personally, nerd that I am, the plymoth story of a scientist talking with her computer resonates more deeply with me than tales of political intrigue and heroic derring do. Once again, it is a problem of the two colonies each having a different way of approaching life.
I can understand different people liking the Plymoth or Eden story better, because the "attitude" of each story resonates better with their personality. Some people here probably find Emma talking with Frost to be excruciatingly boring, wheras I can think of few things I would prefer to do.
-The Master's ideas are not entirely bad. Being choosy about genetic makeup of children would help considerably for a small band of humans trying to survive. I think the fact that they took the idea so far, to the point where it threatened humanity, is yet another testament to the lack of a moderating Plymoth viewpoint. The Masters represent the worst Eden could become without Plymoth balancing their worst tendencies, a group that would be willing to abandon humanity for the sake of rushing forward to a "next step" without regard for consequences.
This is not to say that the people of Eden are bad though, they are just a little too "gung ho", which is easily misinterpreted as evil. The people of Plymoth on the other hand would end up stagnating without Eden to push them forward.
The attitudes of Eden and Plymoth have always and will always exist in humanity. They represent different overall attitudes that different people have towards forward progress. The split between the colonies reinforced both attitudes by physically separating the people who felt differently (separating the Sirbombers from the Psudomorphs if you will. :P )
-It is always possible to have a good ending or bad ending. The good ending is whatever makes the person playing feel better about their accomplishments. Granted there is no good/bad ending explicitly coded into the game itself, but a good/bad ending can definitely exist in the minds of the players, and that doesn't make it any less real.
-You don't care what happens to the Savants? It seems like they are at least as sentient as humans, and if not yet, then they will be when they have taken over New Terra. If they really are sentient machines as suggested, then I think their fate matters as much as the fate of any human would. I don't think you can write the Savants off as non-sentient computers unless you have some inside info I don't know about.
-I am assuming the part about religion refers to something that someone edited out of their post, or a deleted post, because otherwise most of it appears to be a complete non-sequiter. If you are reffering to the post on the first page, then I think Brazilian Fan already nipped that potential *hitstorm in the bud.
-Eden definitely has better technology (In keeping with their progress-oriented attitude I might add), and is technologically better equipped to build a starship. From a strictly utilitarian view they are the best choice to get humanity off New Terra, but that doesn't mean that we can't sympathize with the ideals of another colony, or question whether the loss of one or the other colony might not prove to humanity's disadvantage in the long run.
-It is no surprise to me that people see Eden as evil. Their attitude is one of aggressiveness, progress, not taking no for an answer, etc. Eden is the very essence of many tendencies that people dislike, and may consider "Bad". Thus it is easy to label Eden as "evil", when merely they are just one extreme of the vast spectrum of attitudes found in humanity. They are not evil, they are just the kind of personalities that some people find off-putting.
Eden v. Plymoth
-To the people who dislike Eden enough to want it destroyed, I say that without Eden, humanity would quickly stagnate. Our technology and infrastructure would expand more slowly on the new world, and we probably wouldn't do anything too interesting. We would survive, but not thrive, and it would be boring as hell. Eden contains humanity's impelling force, the drive that makes us want to go out and seize the day, conquer the universe.
-To the people who want to see Plymoth destroyed, I say that without Plymoth, Eden will eventually overstep itself and be severely damaged in the process. Their technology and colony would quickly expand once they reached a new world, and it would look to everyone like nothing could stop us now. Then something would go wrong. Most likely it would be in the form of war breaking out between two or more ideologies, or maybe another disaster related to scientific development. Similar disturbances will continue to hurt the new colony. Their development would be of the "two steps forward, one step back" method.
Plymoth contains humanity's stabalizing force, the group that says "Lets wait a minute and think this thing through first".
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About the religion thing, I've been keeping most of this in for a week because I didn't want to post in an inactive thread and just wanted to get it out.
Who said anything about destroying Plymouth? Not that they don't deserve it (stupid Mic rushers). But you forget that Plymouth's children go with Eden (or Eden's children go with Plym) so the balance is restored and it doesn't really matter in the end.
It's okay to label the Masters as evil; they are Nazis. Look at them and look at the Nazis. The Masters. The Master race. They're all about genetic purity and purging humanity of inferiory genes through warfare. Under the Masters (Plym story) Eden becomes a police state with Echo as the dictator (Hitler). Any disenters mysteriously vanish (sent to the labor/concentration camps).
Sixteen-year-old Echo Van Dozier thought that "Echo" was an excellent name for a clone. She was a clone, she liked to remind everyone. Most people were, the good people anyway. The colony couldn't afford to carry any dead weight, so they pulled only the best genetic material from the Gene Bank to make only the best people.
Of course, some people still elected to have babies the old-fashioned way, but Echo thought that was silly. The babies didn't turn out too bad, since usually both of their parents were superior clones, but why try to improve on perfection? This random mixing of genes, hoping for something acceptable to come out of it, was just madness as far as she was concerned.
She volunteered at the Nursery as frequently as possible, and she got to see all the babies. She thought it was obvious that the clone babies were better: healthier, stronger, more active. Why other people couldn't see that, she didn't understand.
But she'd already decided to attend the University, study medicine, child development, and genetics, and make the Nursery her life's work. Someday she'd be in charge of this place, and then she'd find a way to break people of this gene-mixing notion. There'd be nothing but clones when she was in charge.
She'd find a way. She was sure of it.
And why should I care about the Savants? They're unemotional machines. It thinks emotions are "abstract". Why should I feel sorry for them when they don't even know what sympathy is? Besides, most people agree that the after the Savants become infected they want to destroy humanity. Look at all the OP3's. All of them have the infected Savants as major villains, not "designers of the new world" they thought they'd be. Think of it this way: You can put them out of their misery.
I've never trusted Artificial Intelligence anyways. Though I must admit, when she says "You have failed; our colony is doomed"... Sexy. Don't deny it. ;)
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Eden pwns! eden launches in edens story anywayz
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Sirbomber (thumbsup)
I think people makes a mistake in their interpretition on the topic title. It doesn't say "Who do you want to win", it says".
All plymouth has going for going for them is EMP missiles(which is countered by Eden) and some extra Morale buildings.
Eden has better weapons, more ways to utilize their surroundings(Magma Refining, Heat mining) and a huge cost saver in their RLV. (Would be nice to see how much is actually saved there ?)
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Well their ways of living are reflected in game mechanics too:
Eden has heavier weaponry, more advanced stuff, usually cheaper stuff, less research times, Advanced Residences, but more unstable morale, higher costs for morale stuff and social/civic stuff, etc.
Plymouth on the other hand has things to adapt, heavier buildings, less research times for socio-civic topics, less costs for those stuff, and a more stable/healthy morale - on the other hand their machinery and general costs are higher, and their weapons are more of adapted things, not direct damage. Same with their EMP missiles.
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Eden has ... more unstable morale ...
Actually, Hacker told me awhile ago that Eden has a built-in morale bonus.
[size=0]I'm not quite sure if he made a mistake, but that's what he told me.[/size]
But it doesn't matter HOW their weapons and morale work, nor are we discussing who "deserves" to win. We are talking about who is supposed to win. New Terra has very limited number of Rare Ore mines. Eden compensates for this with the use of Magma Wells. They have the resources to build a starship. Plymouth doesn't, no matter how you look at it. Just because you can build 10 starships in game doesn't mean you can in the story.
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Thats PLYMOUTH, Sir. Eden has the normal morale (because they can buy it)
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But it doesn't matter HOW their weapons and morale work, nor are we discussing who "deserves" to win. We are talking about who is supposed to win. New Terra has very limited number of Rare Ore mines. Eden compensates for this with the use of Magma Wells. They have the resources to build a starship. Plymouth doesn't, no matter how you look at it. Just because you can build 10 starships in game doesn't mean you can in the story.
Oh come on, on the whole planet just soo little ore, that is dumb. Here on Earth you have soo much "rare" ore that you can eat it :P .
And yes, Sirbomber, I think that weapons indeed count. From a mine - smetler location, enemy sends a patrol, they detect this patrol, and send interceptors. NOW weapons and body of vechs WORK. Just like in the campaign. If they win, they got the mine and the cargo in the cargo truck. If they loose, they wasted ores.
This or any else example shows this.
In any case of danger or Paranoia, a human is to do everything, I mean Everything, to save himself and his closest. Including everykind of weaponry.
I belive, if the war between E and P escalated to a further level, i'l think we'l see Nukes. But more likely they drop them on the battlefield, not on colonies.
Eden compensates for this with the use of Magma Wells. They have the resources to build a starship. Plymouth doesn't, no matter how you look at it.
Wrong. Plymouth can do something. Human will , courage and morale. Outpost is a micro-managment game, everything you do in the game, ticks the morale (kinda of) If Outpost2 was real, i think that plymouth develop more advanced tech, about i won't talk too much...
Don't you see, that when E advances, P advances, and as P advances, E adances right behing him. And that could go to eternity, but the game is too short.
I think this Phenomenon is called evolution. A "inside" will or just a adaption to everything around you.
You think "box" like. Everything that you SEE in the game, you understand, but what you DON'T see you can't understand. When discussing about these topics, I don't take this game AS a game. When discussing about these "deep" topics I think the game of as a reality. How people will react, how will this affect their brain. How will it affect their thinking about everything around them.
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Thats PLYMOUTH, Sir. Eden has the normal morale (because they can buy it)
I never said I believed him, but that is what he told me.
It was awhile ago anyways.
And Savant... We're talking about a GAME here. Outpost 2 is not alive. It doesn't matter what Eden and Plymouth MIGHT do if the game were longer because it isn't.
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Remember that in the storyline (somewhere, I can't remember if it was the story or in breifing) that many of the rich deposits where already infected by the blight, and as such, are unusable. Remember, the stuff also travels underground far farther then it does on the surface. So more mineral deposits are unusable.
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And Savant... We're talking about a GAME here. Outpost 2 is not alive. It doesn't matter what Eden and Plymouth MIGHT do if the game were longer because it isn't.
:blink:
Have you no imagination at all?
I think half the fun of a game, or for that matter a movie, book, etc. is to imagine in what directions it could go if extended under such and such circumstances.
I think it is this ability to imagine things beyond what is set in front of us that results in a great deal of human progress in the world. If nobody had ever thought beyond the ending of OP2, we wouldn't have a bunch of people trying to make OP3.
Games/books/movies are vessels by which humans can explore possibilities within a limited scope using controlled variables. It is only natural, once they have finished exploring a story, for a person to expand the scope in their own mind, and alter the variables of the story in a variety of ways to explore further and in different directions then the original storyline explicitly stated.
Stories are things to be explored, not read and recited verbatim.
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Yes, Plymouth gets a morale bonus. It's set in Morale.txt.
DIFF_EASY 100
DIFF_MED 92
DIFF_HARD 83
DIFF_EASY_PLY 110
DIFF_MED_PLY 100
DIFF_HARD_PLY 92
The numbers are essentially morale multipliers. After calculating the base morale value using your current colony conditions, the value is sort of multiplied by these. The morale effects from events are added after this. So if you had perfect colony conditions, and no events had occured that affect morale, and if you were playing on Hard, then Eden would have stable morale at 83, and Plymouth would be at 92.
Note that the highest morale level is at 90, so to keep it up there on hard for Eden you'd need a consumer goods factory producing stuff to get there using the event portion of morale, or from other events which you usually have less control over, and tend to take longer to complete (like researching a new topic).
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I think there are hardcoded morale bonuses as well (could be wrong, but my memory tells (or misleads) me that some of the morale update functions check whether the player is Eden or Plymouth and does some adjustments based on that.
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The only colony type check I saw in that code was the one that selected the appropriate constant listed above.
As for who was supposed to win, I'm just gonna say Eden. It sounds like they were in the better technological position to win. I think they just allowed Plymouth to win in the Plymouth storyline because it'd be dissapointing for the player to win but not really win. Kinda of like, what's the point in playing Plymouth if they can never escape the planet? Just seems too futile.
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I agree with Homman there, Eden has a clear tecnological lead
I think people say that ply should win because they LIKE it (starflare, emp missile, and the "Eden is Evil" thingy)
We should base our judgements on facts, not because we like some side. Hell, I love to play with Plymouth. But I don't think they would really win
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After reading the most recent posts I have to agree that Eden has a definite edge over Plymouth. Although I think Plymouth should win because it was Eden that screwed up the planet to begin with. As has been said by others, Eden has better weapons (2 words Thor's Hammer :D ). Eden's RLV also gives them a huge edge in the Space Race as it can launch all their SS components for the cost of 4-5
SULVs.
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Prometheus is a Cybrid in the Dynamix Earthsiege series... He is the head honcho Cybrid!!!
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Prometheus is a Cybrid in the Dynamix Earthsiege series... He is the head honcho Cybrid!!!
What does ANY of that have to do with this thread? Neither "Prometheus" nor "Cybrid" appear in any post in this thread. Please post your off-topic nonsense someplace else.
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Its kinda moot though who wins in the story because Plymouth steals what they need (scientists, RLV, etc). And their technology also adapted to meet that need (Spiders, Stickyfoam, EMP Missiles) - if anything yes Eden would win on a pure TECHNOLOGICAL basis but Plymouth evens it out with their tactics and (ir)rationality, even.
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Eden has a good advantage with the thors and acid clouds but plymouth even has it better they are able to launch missles and esg's are really effective so I think overall Plymouth wins ....if you are quick enough at having spaceports and esg's by the time the mark is up
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They don't have enough resources for their own starship; how are they going to Missile Whore?
P.S. Thor's Hammer is not an uber-weapon, despite popular belief.
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oh come on even though thors are vulnerable to emp's and esg's the have far range when it comes to battle
People still get killed behind the walls with thors there lol :P
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EMP missiles(which is countered by Eden)
Hardly.
I'm kinda betting on Plymouth to win. Thieves always win.
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not ALWAYS
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Just thinking the other day...yeah Eden PROBABLY is winnar because not only were they much farther along in the project and Plymouth had to steal everything including an RLV at the last minute (in the Plymouth campaign). Plus either way whats his name stays behind and according to Eden ending, leads them all, perhaps on a desperate attempt to build another starship.
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Well, the central point of both campaigns was the fact that the blight was spreading so fast that much of the planet's resources were effectively inacessible (already over-run or couldn't safely be harvested before being over-run by the blight). If there were enough resources for two starships then why waste time and precious resources building weapons? The simple truth is that only one side made it out, taking the children of the the losing colony with them for humanitarian reasons.
In all likelyhood Eden would have been the ones to escape as they were more advanced technologically. The RLV allowed them to save their resources for the starship instead of having to waste it on one shot rockets.
Even if we assume both side managed to build a starship, Eden's would stand a better chance of success on arrival at a new planet. The RLV would allow them to pack every last scrap of metal they had for the voyage for use on the new planet.
As for the whole "who's the bad guy?" issue, it should be remembered that eden didn't intend to release the blight, it escaped. The bug had been created to terraform the planet, so presumably they would have designed it so that it couldn't get into their buildings/vehicles/spacesuits. How the BLight gained this ability is unclear (it could have been intended as a bioweapon designed to only infect a small area, but its more likely that it was unintentional, it amy even have evolved that way after its release!). In any case it's clear from the storyline that everyone involved in the development of the Blight was killed in the explosion of the lab (a meeting on the situation was being held in the lab at the time). This means that whatever the sins of Pre-Blight Eden might have been, the Eden in the game wasn't responible for them since they were those who were involved in the upkeep of the colony.
Edit to add: Since in both stories Axen Moon stay behind its possible that (as Nightmare said) that he lead with Plymouth to build a second starship. A sencond starship would likely take fewer resources to build since they would have the lessions Eden had learned from their effort (once the RLV launches the tech in Eden would be free for the taking (if we assume the colony is destroyed shortly after the launch of the RLV we can suppose that Axen to the computer files with him). The resources needed would also be less because it wouldn't be necessary to do any prototyping. Plymouth would also have the design for the RLV further lower the resources needed. They could even us their newly aquired RLV to fly to the last area of the planet to be infected and thus save on having to build a new colony everytime the Blight gets close. This "sub-orbital hopping" could even be used to access resources that would otherwise be inaccessible (i.e. those for which there is time to set up a mining base but enough time the get back to the main colony before being overrun by the Blight). They would also have been able to salvage Eden's skydock for resources.
I think its quite possible for the surviving colony to have scrapped together enough to build a second starship or at least an interplanetary ship (New Terra shouldn't have been the only planet in the system after all). If they managed to reach another planet in the same system they would have all the time and resources they needed to build a new starship.
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Hmmm. Perhaps if the Maesis starship does follow the Conestoga's vapor trail and arrives at New Terra before the entire planet is completely enveloped the Maesis
will add what the Plymouth have completed of their starship onto their own and thus allow the colonists on the ground to travel with them? Or perhaps they left and survived on the spacedock while using asteroid miners to gather materials to complete the starship.
Then again the blight can't survive extremely high temperatures. So you could use units make completely without oxygen and use them in blight territory, these vehicles would then be torched with fusion torches which would kill the blight while probably destroying the vehicle, but the matter would still be there to be salvaged.
Another concept is if the Plymouth colonists figure out a way to mine the planets mantle, we are presently drilling into the area between the crust and mantle so I don't see how that could be impossible.
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This isn't the Genesis forum Combine...
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Blight cant survive space and it was launched from space no connection to the ground.
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I thought the blight expanded in areas that had hydrogen and oxygen. Last time I checked, space void had neither.
Although simply surviving in space is a different story. If it had what to attach itself to, it could be transported between planets.
And... what do you mean the blight was launched from space? :huh: I thought the blight was created in an Eden advanced lab :unsure:
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Cmon now ya'll. What the hell is wrong with you? We all know the Blight travels thru space by using Plot Holes as a means of transportation. Don't make me bring the diagram back.
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Don't make me bring the diagram back.
Not much of a point bringing it back, since the thing just kinda, well, haunts you.
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We all know the Blight travels thru space by using Plot Holes as a means of transportation.
:lol:
I personally think the Plymys should win. So there! :P
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I think that its an open-ended story
From a developer stand point this is good because it allows them to make a sequel no matter what happens to the story (although in OP2's case this did not happen)
From a gamer point this is even better because no matter what happens your favorite faction wins and the game itself is like: 'Who's to say who would really win?' the two endings could be looked at as what if scenarios based on this scenarios outcome.
Personally I don't care who wins as long as humanity keeps on chugging along :lol:
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I always thought Plymouth was the 'official' ending because of the narration during the final video. *Shrug*
Fans of Homeworld pretty much had this very same problem when all we had was the original Homeworld game. In it, one could play the SP campaign as either side (Taiidan or Kushan). Until Cataclysm was released a few years later, it was up in the air as to who the 'official' exiles (The player) really was. Cataclysm established the 'official' race as the Kushan.
However, I and some other fans feel that the Taiidani ship designs and naming conventions better fit desert-dwellers-turned-astronauts, despite official ruling to the contrary.
Regardless, any reason could be drawn up to return Eden and Plymouth back for an Outpost 3 game should it ever be considered. Maybe the adopted children leaned more towards their parents' ideas and split off some years after landfall. Who knows?
Of course, the whole point is mute if the Trading Center was built before Nygen got a hand on terraforming tech. Kudos to the Toho Aligned colonies for preventing the disaster!
:op2:
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Personally, I think the Blight won, I mean it basically screwed over the whole planet and made the other two retreat into space. Eden seems like the logical "winner", though. Only they had the right tech and initiative to build a proper starship. Also, once they settled down again they wouldn't just resume their old ways. It seems like they would a little more like Plymouth after setting loose the Blight. They would not make the same mistakes again, and would be more cautious with their decisions.
Eventually, the Blight might even decide to make its own sort of starship, especially if it did absorb the Savants. If there wasn't enough supplies to build a new ship (or 40) then it hardly seems like the colonists would have landed there to begin with.
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Last time I checked, the blight wasn't a faction and it would take a looong time 'till the blight "grows a brain", so to speak, and start ordering instruments left behind by Eden and Plymouth... Enough time for mankind to rebuild itself.
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Like Red Alert games there are two possible story lines that are separate to one another, Eden or Plymouth wining. Least that is how I thought it was.
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Last time I checked, the blight wasn't a faction and it would take a looong time 'till the blight "grows a brain", so to speak, and start ordering instruments left behind by Eden and Plymouth... Enough time for mankind to rebuild itself.
Have you read the Plymouth novella? It explains how the Savants' biological brains were incorporated into the blight, thus making the blight a rapid computing medium. The blight itself would not be smart, but the entity created by the combination of all of the Savants would be theoretically capable of controlling units (as seen in the novella).
Even if the Eden campaign is taken as the 'real' story, the biological properties of the blight and savants would still be the same; they just chose not to explain it to the player.
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I see... It's been a long time since I read those, so I kinda forgot them.
But seeing as the blights main role was to free hydrogen and oxygen molecules, effectively destroying biological things that contain those two, would those Savant brains still be able to compute? At least enough to actually put something intelligible toghether?
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Clearly, or they wouldn't have made such a big deal about it.
"As you begin your long voyage, you will not be forgotten. As we are reborn, we will use our great powers of thought to dream as we never have before.
"We will dream of you. We will dream for you. We will send you our dreams as our gift, that your next world will survive and prosper. And though our voice may fade with time, know that when you look into the sky, we will always be here, and you will always live in our thoughts."
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I'm not sure what to say about basically any of the previous posts on this topic.
1stly: Eden is neither Good nor Evil, they are not the Natzi's of WWII, nor are they the humble yet fierce Aztecs invaded by Cortez and the Spanish. They simply have the most technological resources avalible to them, and a willingness to put those resources to work.
2ndly: Plymouth is not some backwater, bunch of hicks out in the country. They willingly split ties with Eden, seperated from the original colony by hi-jacking the 2nd seed factory from the Conastoga. Thier primary talent is engineering, not science. hence why they have spiders, and can't mine from magma wells or use artificial lightning, or make the blight. They simply lack the genetic expertise to make that happen.
Now this being said, this puts both colonies on equal footing. While in some reguards Eden leads due to its technogical advances, its also easily beaten back by Plymouths ability to quickly understand and usurp technology.
Both factions at the start of the game, work to stop the blight, and likewise both factions save the other sides children in the end.
The Blight was not created by an EVIL man, mearly a man who had a dream and a vision to allow the men and women on New Terra to breath air, tend crops, play on beaches, ect, ect, ect... with in his life time. To this end, he foolishly cast aside anyone and anything that may hinder that goal from becoming a reality. So much so he failed to listen to not only Axen, but also his staff members, when he was warned time and time again about the dangers the new biological compents they were using posed to the health of Human kind. Contrary to several lines of thought I have read in this thread, he did not crave war with Plymouth, he craved a better world, one in which his children and grand children could play in the open air with out a space suit, just as his ancestors did. Not unlike many well meaning politicians in many countries around the globe, Nugyeon ment well, but ultimatly his passion got in his way, and as a result he failed in a most spectacular manner.
Oh great maker we do have alot of Plymouth fans here. (BTW that was not a religous conotation, that was a line taken from the game its self.) Plymouth in fact terminated communications with Eden. Decided talking to them was fuitile and thus shut down the only link the 2 colonies readily had avalible. While a handful of individuals with gifted Savants could establish communications, most could not contact thier long lost cousins, brothers and sisters. In point of fact, it was Plymouth who 1st developed weapons systems. Defensive in nature, mind you, but they had been part of the Plymouth colony since they seperated from Eden, more to the point since they stole the 2nd seed factory from the Conastoga, as before they departed the ship they took with them the plans to build Microwave transmission relays, which were easily adapted to Microwave weapons systems.
As the engineers for the Conastoga they had ready access to all the encrypted files on weapons technologies. Eden did not and had to work hard to break into those files. Once such example of readily avalible tech is of course the EMP missle (Uhh Hello we basically call these NUKES!!!!! Ok not really, but pretty damned close to it.) ,to which they only began researching and using when they realized they were in desperate straights with thier starship program. As you may recall "Steal Eden's RLV." is not only mentioned multiple times in the Plymouth story line, but also becomes a requirement of the game in Plymouth Mission 12. Now if you know the story line, the reason why they do this is because thier going to steal Eden's completed starship, or at least sabotage it. (And some of you think Eden is Evil??? What do you call the group of people that 1st steals a vital part of a colony, makes a new colony, then later when all hell has broken loose, comes and takes not only your nifty Reusable Launch Vehicle, but also the whole damned ship? Oh did I mention, walks into your colony and basically rips it to shreds to steal the RLV in the 1st place?)
All of the above is basically a moot issue however. Sadly there is a serious problem in the story. The Plymouth story line simply can not be true. If it was... Eden would have been a smoking crater of ruin and decay when the EMP Missles and spiders came to steal the RLV, as Echo and crew in the story had destroyed the colony rather then let Axen and crew have it. As such mission 12 should if it followed the story line like Eden's does, there should essentially be Eden units right at the gates of Plymouth's Colony, ready to make a final bid for taking out the rest of humanities chances. As Eden is alive and well, and Echo and crew are not at Ply's gates at the start of Ply Mission 12, I believe its very safe to say Eden could well have finished its final launches before Ply could mount a successful attack, get the RLV, and launch its crews.
Which given that.... if you follow all the story lines, not just the novella, but the mission briefings as well, Plymouth had a mostly working starship in orbit at the start of mission 12 as well did Eden, Plymouth's needed some fine tuning, but it was there. There is absolutly no reason at all, why with out Eden being present, that Plymouth could not have gone over the now totally deserted Eden colony and simply salvaged like mad, and mined out the last Eden mines, to launch what few modules they had to launch to make the starship go. Finite resources or not, there was sufficent material on the ground even on the easy version, in the way of combat vehichles and buildings, not to mention the RLV would be coming back down on its preprogrammed path, to simply salvage away and get off the planet before it was too late.
On the flip side of the coin, following Eden's side, after the Final Launch of the Eden Clipper. Plymouth is sending units from a secure location. Again with a mostly function starship in orbit. Axen is departing with what remains of Edens population, and its technological resources. Again with that now readily avalible to Plymouth, which I am sure thats where they went.... not many options on a dieing planet and all, Assuming they have to launch a Pheonix Module, food, common and rare ores modules, and of course the crew module.... they have Axen, and the remaining Edenites. I am sure one of them could have programmed the RLV to land at Plymouth's space port before its final take off... there by reducing the Ore demands needed to be met by Plymouth to complete thier starship. Even with Finite ore sources avalible, obviously given the shear number of units they feild during the Eden Mission 12, its clearly obvious they could melt those suckers down and make like a tree and leaf, not to mention thier stock pile of EMP missles would make for an excellent source of ore. As Axen said, "There is still hope."
So in closing, no matter what you believe, in my opinion Both get off the planet before it turns in to a gigantic bio-tech program gone wrong.
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Last time I checked, the blight wasn't a faction and it would take a looong time 'till the blight "grows a brain", so to speak, and start ordering instruments left behind by Eden and Plymouth... Enough time for mankind to rebuild itself.
Have you read the Plymouth novella? It explains how the Savants' biological brains were incorporated into the blight, thus making the blight a rapid computing medium. The blight itself would not be smart, but the entity created by the combination of all of the Savants would be theoretically capable of controlling units (as seen in the novella).
Even if the Eden campaign is taken as the 'real' story, the biological properties of the blight and savants would still be the same; they just chose not to explain it to the player.
And don't forget the ORIGINAL OP3 storyline! I wish Stellarwave went ahead with the project and submitted it to a different producing company. In all rights, the game was theirs.
Anyway, from what I remember of the original story line, the microbe did manage to form some collective intelligence, and there were four colonies (Eden, Plymouth, Blight, New Haven)
I only remember bits and pieces, so I'm not 100% sure on the other information I'm not posting.
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Nice summary there S3 :)
I'd still place my bets on Eden making it out alive because of their weapons superiority though ;)
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Hmm.
In point of fact, it was Plymouth who 1st developed weapons systems. Defensive in nature, mind you, but they had been part of the Plymouth colony since they seperated from Eden, more to the point since they stole the 2nd seed factory from the Conastoga, as before they departed the ship they took with them the plans to build Microwave transmission relays, which were easily adapted to Microwave weapons systems.
Are you sure about this one? I thought I read in the story that Eden had weapons first. I remember thinking it was odd that Eden had weapons first, but Plymouth built something better. Also, the split took place well after they landed and Eden was established.
Mind you, the story doesn't seem to be entirely consistent at times. At least certainly not since there are two seperate stories with two different outcomes. Plus, the story for Outpost 2 probably doesn't match up perfectly with the story from Outpost 1. I think trying to choose a "correct" story is futile.
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I think trying to choose a "correct" story is futile.
Indeed, because everyone knows deep down that Eden won.
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well its like the Command and Conquer series, there's two outcomes to each game. GDI or Nod, but for the sake of continuity and canon, it's assumed that GDI always wins. In this case, Eden wins; both logically and canonically.
personally I like to think Eden wins as well. Axen had a much more compelling storyline than Emma in my opinion.
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Hmm.
In point of fact, it was Plymouth who 1st developed weapons systems. Defensive in nature, mind you, but they had been part of the Plymouth colony since they seperated from Eden, more to the point since they stole the 2nd seed factory from the Conastoga, as before they departed the ship they took with them the plans to build Microwave transmission relays, which were easily adapted to Microwave weapons systems.
Are you sure about this one? I thought I read in the story that Eden had weapons first. I remember thinking it was odd that Eden had weapons first, but Plymouth built something better. Also, the split took place well after they landed and Eden was established.
Mind you, the story doesn't seem to be entirely consistent at times. At least certainly not since there are two seperate stories with two different outcomes. Plus, the story for Outpost 2 probably doesn't match up perfectly with the story from Outpost 1. I think trying to choose a "correct" story is futile.
Both story lines in game point to Eden having weapons first. Plymouth only developed weapons after they got a satelite image of Eden's infected colony.
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(And some of you think Eden is Evil??? What do you call the group of people that 1st steals a vital part of a colony, makes a new colony, then later when all hell has broken loose, comes and takes not only your nifty Reusable Launch Vehicle, but also the whole damned ship? Oh did I mention, walks into your colony and basically rips it to shreds to steal the RLV in the 1st place?)
Yeah, that is kinda extreme. But when you have Echo Van Dozer turning Eden into nazi-clone land with super-powerful weapons and a disposition that threats humanity's very survival AND the Blight threatening to kill all of humanity, it's time for the gloves to go off and to get those EMP missiles ready.
Don't forget that Eden raided Plymouth once, too.
You gotta agree that the last Plymouth campaign is much better than the last Eden campaign, though. Final Eden is the typical build-defend-make starship mission, while Final Plymouth forces you to defend yourself, manage your colony, raise a army, raid a colony, defeat their forces in a great battle, steal a RLV with EMP missiles and spiders and then finish the goddamned starship before the blight reaches you. It's a perfect climax for OP2.
As for who won... I think Eden has more chances to win here. Better research, more knowlodge about the blight, better weapons (Thor's Hammer) and more info about starship building. But it would't surprise me if Plymouth made a comeback in the future world as a new splinter faction.
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I just realized they were acting like futuristic Mongols O_o
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I just realized they were acting like futuristic Mongols O_o
mankind is stupid at any time O.O
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Mankind is inherently stupid. That's why we have so many wars in our history, and will probably have many more in the future
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Mankind is inherently stupid. That's why we have so many wars in our history, and will probably have many more in the future
mankind ftw!!!
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stupidity is a constant in the universe. if it lives its done some thing stupid.
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I won. End of story.
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An a sequel comes up where Sirbomber loses.
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Hidiot, don't spoil the ending of OP3. Besides, I don't lose. I sacrifice my colony to fight off Combine's armies of terror so everyone else can escape the planet.
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Don't forget the TANKNOOB army
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BLah, are ppl this bad at reading?
I dont care if this thread is old i cant sit here and read this the way it is without getting angry at all these inaccurracies. How could a devoted fansite leave such inaccuracies in its own story... Especially one that likes to remind everyone how important it is in keeping things like expansions and mods "in the spirit of the story" or logical to the story line. According to this, parts of the story line have been destroyed/butchered/or just plain thought up in an effort to say who you personally liked (who won). though since this is alittle old id really suggest that ppl reread these prior posts first to understand what im saying as its really long.
from Sir Bomber How about you play the Eden campaign and read the story? Then maybe you'll learn that Plymouth raided Eden, kidnapped Eden scientists, and stole Eden technology after Eden had tried to negotiate a peace treay between the two Colonies. Now who's evil?
And lets not forget that as a condition of their nice treaty, Plymouth must hand over their gene bank by placing it in some marked non strategic location so that when edens forces attack them they know where it is (essentially a treaty wherein one side agrees to be attacked and then have the source of all their courage/hope/strength etc taken).... Eden's so nice. And furthermore in the plymouth storyline, Eden is at this point run by Echo and the masters and their only intention is to destroy the one remaining gene bank. you dont remember that guy Eden drops off in a blitz on Plymouth. the one that kills 2 ppl on his way to destroy the gene bank and gets caught by emma then presented at edens peaceful negotiation? Even moreso, in the actual game mission your objective as plymouth is to take starship pieces and capture some scientists. thats all. But as high and mighty Eden your objective is to steal the gene bank, capture some scientists, and then on top of that, destroy every single advance lab and then go on to destroy Plymouths spaceport, but thats justified becuase Eden surely kindly waited for all the ppl working in them to leave. Hey Plymouth is already behind in the space race, so the idea was to really piss off Plymouth... BTW this might just be why Plymouth launches their all out attacks on Eden in the last Eden mission, cause idk maybe their completely screwed now and they need to capture yours. For the record, here is what the Eden novella states of Plymouths raid that sir bomber so mentioned.
Retribution had come swift and hard for the actions of Jacque Barre, "Eden Spy." Under cover of darkness, a Plymouth convoy had sliced through Eden's defenses, ignored choice strategic targets, and made a lightning raid on the labs researching starship technology. An attempt to remove salvage from the original starship, Conestoga, had been repelled thanks to courageous action by the Volunteer Guard, but three scientists were missing and presumed captured.
note how Plymouth deviously decimated Edens colony to get to the lab... destorying the nursery and cutting off the residences from the agridomes, burning all the evac transports in the way *ok now in the Eden novella I realize it was actually the masters who had taken damaged units and raided plymouth just at the negotiations but, plymouth doesnt know that and they believe it was Eden.
and on the general topic of how benevolent the "real" Eden is, according to the Eden novella, the original OLD council i.e. not the masters, ran the gulag. Borges, though a master, was sent there becuase of his association with the masters. In fact the entire reason the masters gained ground in the first place in the Eden story is because the normal eden ppl found out about the councils gulag after Axen was rescued. At this point Eden ppl cant trust their council, and their last elder is in stasis. but thankfully in steps this new masters group that also really hates the old council. if you really dont believe that then try to remember that Axen got his "residence reassignment orders" from a letter sent to him by the council and then he went to protest to the council, and obviously failed.
from sir bomber How can you say that Eden started the war, when Plymouth is the rebel colony? Neither colony is "peace loving" or "war hungry". But again, all you play is the Plymouth campaign and ignore the Eden campaign. Plymouth attacks Eden more than Eden attacks Plymouth.
This is such an important aspect to the game and underline story! how did you get this wrong. If you cant remember anything else in this post just remember this. It changes the entire perspective of the story. According to the Eden novella which you can read in game, and obviously not from plymouths campaign. Plymouth was purposefully created by the Elders (all of them) did you miss the part where (in the very first chapter) She smiled slightly. "As though you and I don't know a thing or two about misinformation. Where did we go wrong, Axen?" He leaned his head down and rubbed his brow, unable to face her. This had been his idea initially. "You saw the computer projections. All the Elders did. Two independent colonies had a much greater probability of survival than one." "We could have told the people..." "Not and have the colonies be truly independent. Creating a political rift seemed like the best way." She nodded. "And now you see where it's brought us?" He sighed and leaned back in his chair. "You can see for yourself the different paths Eden and Plymouth have followed. The split might have happened anyway, given enough time. It's human nature to cluster into like groups." "It's human nature for groups to go to war, too. We should have seen it coming." "There isn't a war yet, Emma. Plymouth doesn't even have weapons."
The fact that Axen and Emma and all the elders purposely caused the split is seen and hinted at all throughout both novellas. Axen and Emma are the only two elders left and therefore the only two who know the real reason why they split, and also why they carry such a heavy burden in the story. In their mind since they are responsible for spliting the colony they are also now responsible for this war and all the deaths and so on and so on. see for instance the part where it says "The split might have happened anyway, given enough time". id also like to stress how this is HIS idea, Axen, who isnt plymouth if i can remember correctly. note that this also should settle the argument over who got weapons first and how the "rebel" plymouth conveniently has all the structures/vehicles/food/minerals that it needs when they seperate.
if you need more proof......
We've come full-circle. Who knew it would lead to this? Certainly not he. Certainly not his fellow Elders when they decided that the colony's best chance for survival was to split in two.
or even
Axen grunted and walked out the door. It wasn't that he thought Panati was up to anything, it was just that the graffiti he kept spotting had raised his paranoia level. The last time he'd seen anything like it was during the political schism that had created Plymouth, and during that revolution, it had been he and his fellow Elders doing the painting.
from sir bomber
Actually, it is the EDEN story in which the Eden and Plymouth survivors band together. The Plymouth ending mentions nothing of the sort, and we are in fact led to believe the war is still being fought on New Terra as Axen has to manually take control of Plymouth's defenses before they get owned by Eden.
First off Axen willfully chooses to stay behind in both stories. Axen isnt controlling the defenses either, Kraft is. Secondly, your statement is just completely made up ("I LIEK IT BETUR LOL" doesn't make it the real story.) Plymouth and Eden did infact band together in Plymouth's storyline. The reason all of Plymouth left and some of Eden got left behind was not becuase Plymouth was evil but, get this, according to the novella, the savant computers created their magical link and devised a way to increase the starships capacity. So much so infact that not just does all of plymouths citizens board the ship, but they even offered some space to the battered remains of Axens forces who just happen to be fighting off the masters so Plymouth can get away (ps this is the part where Plymouth and Eden band together in Plymouths storyline). and, this comes long after Plymouth had taken Eden's children. if plymouth was evil they wouldnt have offered any space to the remaining eden units or have even taken edens children in the first place. hel the spaceport was in danger simply becuase plymouth had to wait for the battered eden troops to reach them and since they were behind the masters.......... looks to me like plymouth risked everything to save a few more lives. Definitely evil ppl. maybe though plymouth would have offered the space anyway but if you read the storyline then youd know that the delta v hadnt been created when plymouth went to take edens children.
from the Plymouth novellaDr. Quigley stepped forward. "The added delta-V will increase the ship's payload enough to accommodate the Eden children without displacing any adults.
As you can see, those greedy self-centered Plymouth ppl had originally intended to take Eden's children to space in place of some of their own adults... now they can all go. If you forgot, the delta V was a result of the link frost created with savants.
from the Plymouth novellaFor a moment the consciousness known as the Link grew a million-fold in size and power, taking into itself every part of every entity that contributed to it. The Link focused it resources on the problem of ion drives. The problem melted like ice before a flame, and a solution was revealed.
Hey on the topic of children, Eden had always had the intention to take plymouths children to space, just like those evil Plymouth ppl intended to take edens children...
or did they?
from the Eden novella"What is it?" "A minor modification of your starship's ion engines to improve the efficiency. It should increase your payload capacity by ten to fifteen percent with no additional fuel." Axen was surprised in spite of himself. "Why are you giving us this, Emma? Why squander your resources on something you had no way to apply?" She chuckled. "Because I have a use for that extra payload, Axen. I'm sending you some passengers."
ya that looks to me like those vulnerable children were Edens top priority... no it looks more like plymouth had to barter for their children's lives. lets not forget (or maybe try to remember) who finished their spaceship first.
On the other hand, In Eden's novella Eden did have a couple "human factors" to consider who or who didnt leave on the spaceship. In fact this makes the eden ending more asinine then Plymouths. Essentially the end story for eden goes like this.....
Eden male 1 "uh dam i wasnt important enough to get to live and there wasnt enough space for everyone in our story(eventhough were more technogically advandced).
Eden male 2 "maybe we could join up with plymouth and use their partially created starship and leave with them..."
Eden male 3 "ya thats a great idea, theyll like it too. its not like we really hated them or destroyed any hope they had of leaving on their own..."
Emma Burke "oh now that you've screwed everyone, you want to cooperate and work as a team. Fine, we'll be the BETTER people and work with you..."
not that i have anything against sir bomber, but since his post was a summary and apparently meant to correct everyone about everything, i just wanted to make sure that he correctly corrected them. and if your going to be a insultive-smartass know it all, then try to be correct about it.
BTW ive played both sides
from Nightmare24148The Eden Gene Bank is traded for more starship stuff(If I remember correctly)
no they dont it gets destroyed in both story lines.
from Nightmare24148And don't forget Plymouth is the one who converted their RLV program into ballistic missiles...
plymouth never had an RLV program they were using SULV hulls and crashing them back into new terra. thats also why you cant make an emp missile and sulv at the same time in game on one spaceport.
from Edens novellaShe glanced at the Gene Bank. "It's yours, but I warn you, you won't be able to keep it without a fight. Plymouth was already planning an all-out attack on Eden to capture your launch facility and, in turn, your starship. They've started converting our launch vehicles into makeshift EMP missiles, that's how desperate they are."
from Prometheus If there were enough resources for two starships then why waste time and precious resources building weapons? The simple truth is that only one side made it out, taking the children of the the losing colony with them for humanitarian reasons.
the only reason both sides fought with each other is becuase there was only one gene bank. no sense in a starship without it. Though behind Plymouth couldnt trust it to Eden as they destroyed the first one, and though ahead, Eden wasnt going to leave the planet without it. Ask yourself this. If eden had a gene bank and eden was still ahead, why would they have bothered with Plymouth at all? hel the first time eden opens an official line to Plymouth is when they realize they have the only gene bank left in existence. the reason they say there isnt enough resources for two star ship programs is because so many resources had to be diverted to armys to fight each other (for instance have you ever tried adding the amount of ore it takes to just build the mission required number of units and then comparing that to the total cost of the space ship?) not to mention having to make even more units on harder difficulties.. and all the repairs. etc.
from Mcshay Have you read the Plymouth novella? It explains how the Savants' biological brains were incorporated into the blight, thus making the blight a rapid computing medium. The blight itself would not be smart, but the entity created by the combination of all of the Savants would be theoretically capable of controlling units (as seen in the novella).
The first part follows the novellas but the blight does not take control of vehicles. If your refering to taking control of units as seen in the novella, for instance the eden turrets and vehicles in mission 4, they are not controlled by the blight. the vehicles used biological components in their hardware/software in addition to non biological components. what the blight did was dissolve all of the biological crap and leave everything else. this is from the eden novella Axen continued, "What we're looking at here isn't a boptronic system anymore, it's an optronic system. From what you've told me, the protein computer cores of these units are gone. It's as though they've been given a skillful and selective lobotomy." Jensen looked at him. "You think they're dangerous?" "Based on what you've shown me, I know they are. The combat units are, anyway, and there may not be anything else left operational by the time you get there. These units have lost their higher command functions, their ability to understand and respond to commands, and to recognize other units, friend or foe. What's left are hard-wired autonomous functions: move, steer, avoid, attack, patrol. My guess is they'll fire at anything that moves within range of them. Or, if erosion of plastic insulation is also causing shorts in their electronics, they could be totally unpredictable, capable of doing almost anything."
Random story facts (these come from the novella): eden is ahead in both novellas, and in fact they were always able to leave earlier. the reason they stayed behind was so that they could get the gene bank. the good eden being axen and the gang tried to do everything the right peaceful way but kept getting screwed by the masters and the old council/diplomats. plymouth didnt know this in edens storyline hence why they didnt work together. In fact both Axen and Emma were really the only good people in a sense that all either of them cared about was humanity's survival. (thats also why they initially created the Eden plymouth schism *see above) in Edens story Emma allows axen to take the gene bank at the end because she has realized in that story that eden will escape and plymouth would not. in Plymouths story Axen leads Edens remaining forces and chases after/fights off the masters so that Plymouth can launch their ppl and continue humanity becuase he realizes that plymouth will escape. there are also earlier less dramatic instances within the respective storylines.
Ok finally i think thats most of the major issues/confusions i saw posted here that came from some other storyline and this reply is probably too large anyway.
Personally, regardless of which side played, i believe both sides do escape. Two major reasons for this. first, is from one of the final plymouth chapters. this is referring to Edens civil warThe urgency was gone now. With Eden destroyed, there was no outside threat other than the Blight, and by itself, that threat was easily manageable in the short-term. They could relocate the colony, finish the starship at their leisure, escape New Terra with time to spare.
on a side note This more than anything illustrates that it was not the blight that was the major concern. Defending against eden was more taxing than running from the blight. or you could look at this as meaning Plymouth was more afraid of Eden than the blight or so on etc.
the second reason i say everyone escapes is becuase of the savants. if a couple of savants can link and think of an otherwise impossible solution in mere seconds (ion drive), then logically what would a planet of them be capable of? in plymouths end frost gets shot back to terra on the skydock and have a link to the starship. its easy enough to see that that link and thought could be used to assist the remaining ppl. hell with the legendary processing power of savants (trillion fold) i wouldnt be surprised if the ppl left behind made a far superior spaceship. on the otherhand in edens end neither side had been as severly destroyed since no masters civil war and invasion of plymouth. it even says at the end that theres a convoy of survivors from both plymouth and eden. Theres plenty of time, and they can still use the partially completed starship. At the end of the game before Plymouth captures the RLV all they have left to launch is the phoenix module and then the cargos and ppl.
And lastly what do you mean by the word win? if you mean escape new terra first like a space race, then i say Eden was supposed to win. they could have left at any time but had stayed on terra to get the gene bank.
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BLah, are ppl this bad at reading?
This coming from someone who typo'd my name not once, not twice, but five times.
Anyways, too busy to read a long, whiny rant post right now. Maybe later, but judging from the first few sentences, probably not.
And if it was that important to you, make a new thread. Don't necro a thread started five years ago (and which hasn't seen activity for two years).
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Actually, bomber, its a real good read. It should have the OPU Seal of Approval
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as one of the few to play the eden campaign from beginning to end multiple times BEFORE playing plymoth, i failed to see how people could ever be misled into believing one of the two where bad or evil. my interpretation was something like there was some third group(a reread finally got what i missed MULTIPLE TIMES :P), the masters skewing things and turning people on each other. thanks stillhere. i think.
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How could a devoted fansite leave such inaccuracies in its own story... Especially one that likes to remind everyone how important it is in keeping things like expansions and mods "in the spirit of the story" or logical to the story line. According to this, parts of the story line have been destroyed/butchered/or just plain thought up in an effort to say who you personally liked (who won).
I'm not sure where you figure that this is by any means considered "official OPU gospel truth" about the game? It's merely a debate about who people think is supposed to win.
Also, assuming that one person is trying to push his opinions on everyone is plain wrong. It's purely a matter of opinion.
Finally, I'm closing this topic because it is absolutely ancient and if you want to talk about this again then create a new thread. Don't necro old threads.