Outpost Universe Forums
Projects & Development => GORF => Online Chat => Topic started by: Leviathan on July 17, 2006, 06:35:15 AM
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Should we change server that were on from QuakeNet and move to our own server?
The channel on QuakeNet is over 3 years old and many people know that we are there and QuakeNet is the most popular IRC network. It makes sence that we have our own server for backup etc but im not sure we totaly need to move off QuakeNet. We will allways keep #Outpost2 at least on QuakeNet.
What do ya think?
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I think we should for a few reasons:
-- First of all it's got much less lag for most of the people who go on IRC. The only people who might lag more to it are people connecting from Europe or Asia. (Of course, we could take care of this if we linked in a server from Europe/Asia). I get about half the lag that I do on Quakenet.
-- It's got recognizable services like NickServ, ChanServ, MemoServ etc. These are common on other irc networks (such as DALnet) and because of that a lot of people already know how to use them. For those who don't we plan on posting a guide. I remember Sl0vi telling me 'the server feels just like home!' because of the standard IRC services.
-- It's got some other features which you don't see very often on IRC but are useful nevertheless. For example, it has excepts and invites (modes e and I), it has halfops (mode h, symbol %), etc.
-- ChanServ is much more capable than Q, supporting up to 1024 users in the access list (and this limit I can easily increase if need be).
-- SSL support. Just connect to port 6697 if you want a secure connection to IRC. (provided that your client supports SSL, I know on mIRC you have to drop in OpenSSL libraries libeay32.dll and ssleay32.dll before SSL will work).
-- We run it, so if you have any problems with the server you can come to us, rather than be ignored as you might be on big IRC networks.
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half ops = got my support
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Chanserv and nickserv kick Q and L's behind :P
I think the new server is great, and we definetly should make a switch. It might be good to still maintain our channels on Quakenet for backup :P Perhaps just keep a bot there to inform people about the server switch.
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Change servers Quakenet just plain sucks. We dont need a back up server. And we dont need opu bot in the Qnet chans if we want to move we need to have people over on the opu servers not qnet dont need to give people a reason to stay.
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Change servers Quakenet just plain sucks. We dont need a back up server. And we dont need opu bot in the Qnet chans if we want to move we need to have people over on the opu servers not qnet dont need to give people a reason to stay.
that you don't like Quakenet doesn't mean that it isn't good.
And we'Ve been there for so long, its part of our history, we can't just leave that behind.
Why not use both networks and link them with opu-bot, as we did before with undernet?
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Change servers Quakenet just plain sucks. We dont need a back up server. And we dont need opu bot in the Qnet chans if we want to move we need to have people over on the opu servers not qnet dont need to give people a reason to stay.
that you don't like Quakenet doesn't mean that it isn't good.
And we'Ve been there for so long, its part of our history, we can't just leave that behind.
Why not use both networks and link them with opu-bot, as we did before with undernet?
Exactly! Ancient history, time to move on.
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that you don't like Quakenet doesn't mean that it isn't good.
And we'Ve been there for so long, its part of our history, we can't just leave that behind.
Ahh, the 238952681395689 netsplits and general s***tiness of QuakeNet... the memories. :/
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The channel linking worked, but we don't want to have the bots anymore.
Yes it maybe part of our history and someone can document it, but its time to move onto something more reliable which we also have far mroe control over.
And its easy enough to give the commands in quakenet channel to switch to the new server!
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I don't like when people want to enforce something.
now to counter some arguments:
- netsplits aren't too bad, because they only last for a few minutes
- that you have more control over it isn't an advantage on its own.
- "time to move on" is not an argument at all.
- only Amaricans have less lag, for me at least its about 3 times as high as on quakenet.
- all new features are fine, but we always did well without them
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I don't like when people want to enforce something.
now to counter some arguments:
- netsplits aren't too bad, because they only last for a few minutes
- that you have more control over it isn't an advantage on its own.
- "time to move on" is not an argument at all.
- only Amaricans have less lag, for me at least its about 3 times as high as on quakenet.
- all new features are fine, but we always did well without them
Millions of netsplits every hour IS bad. Not to mention rules that keep getting stricter and stricter, Q's limitations, etc.
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what rules are that, that you don't like? and why?
All the time you are just like "Quakenet sucks" and I don't have a clue why. Netsplits never where an issue in my eyes. The last netsplit on Quakeneet today was about 7 hours ago and lasted 40 seconds. Is that a reason to move over?
and what do you want to do with Q ?
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We arent going to sit here and squabble over the details we wanted a new server we got a new server we arent going to waste it as a back up server that wont be used because people are to stubourn to just accept change.
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I agree with TH300 on this; the new server is nice and all, but I have a lot of memories from quakenet. Why don't we just stay on two networks?
Also, I have more lag on the new server than I did on quakenet. On quaknet, it's average 120ms with the occasional netsplit (1-3 times a month). On the new server sadly, it's usually 800ms+. I have a lot of red spikes and whatnot.
I would rather not move, I would like to stay on two servers for now. The thing I hate about "NickServ" and ____serv, is because it's annoying to type. Can't we change the name of the bots? Maybe make an alias?
I'm personally fine for having two servers, and you shouldn't enforce people to leave quakenet. I feel that's wrong, and it's becoming more like a dictatorship when that happens. If you ask nicely people will be willing to move.
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No, we're not staying on that piece of s*** network called "QuakeNet". The only memories we have of the SERVER are millions of netsplits. Conversations happen on any IRC network. And Q@cserve.quakenet.org is more annoying to type than "NickServ".
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You can shorten it even further... For example
/msg NickServ identify <password>
becomes
/nickserv identify <password>
or even
/ns identify <password>
All 3 commands are identical.
/ns = /msg nickserv, /cs = /msg chanserv, etc.
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As for having two servers, what's the point in that? It really needs to be either one or the other, otherwise it's a pain for anyone.
As for the lag problem, if people are willing to donate some bandwidth and give us access to a server (either Linux or one of the server-class Windows versions, i.e. Windows Server 2003), we can put an IRC server there.
I want to get at least one in europe as well as at least another one in the northern US / canada.
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*remembers lev's room pic* I think lev has enough computers that he could use one to host a server there...
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You can shorten it even further... For example
/msg NickServ identify <password>
becomes
/nickserv identify <password>
or even
/ns identify <password>
All 3 commands are identical.
/ns = /msg nickserv, /cs = /msg chanserv, etc.
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As for having two servers, what's the point in that? It really needs to be either one or the other, otherwise it's a pain for anyone.
As for the lag problem, if people are willing to donate some bandwidth and give us access to a server (either Linux or one of the server-class Windows versions, i.e. Windows Server 2003), we can put an IRC server there.
I want to get at least one in europe as well as at least another one in the northern US / canada.
actually for identifying with nickserv you don't even have to include the /ns. it can be shortened all the way down to /identify <password>
@TH300, time to move on, is just as much an argument as having memories. Hounestly, my memories of quakenet are very few, mostly annoying, my memories from this community are many, changing server doesn't really change anything community wise, except people have to figure out how to join the new server :P Other then that, it's still the same community, the same people, the same channels, I hounestly don't feel like we're leaving anything behind at all.
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I am just assuming but i think some people are just a bit to paranoid about the new server
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In my opinion we should move to the new server because...
We have total control over it, it's not #Outpost2 on Quakenet, it's #Outpost2 on the OPU network :). The simple fact that is ours is very nice. No Qnet rules to follow. we do with it what we want. No netsplits, they can be very disruptive and annoying at times. Better services, Hacker has listed the advantages to them many times.
However there is a bit more lag on the new server for certain areas (me included), but who really cares. The chat still functions fine. I have an average of 120 ms on Qnet consistantly, but have an average of 300-500 ms with spikes over 2000ms on our server, but I don't care. I would much rather have some lag that doesn't cause much trouble than less lag with evil netsplits.
I belive you can configure your irc client to auto-identify you each time you join the server (as well as other things). You don't need to worry about things like registering your nickname. (I did it with NNS 4.something)
To people who think that it's not safe to move onto private servers where the admins could have the power to mess with the chat, why worry now? They haven't done anything to harm us yet, and they went out to get us a new server to fix Qnet problems. Perhaps you are more afraid of change than private servers. (I didn't mean to attack/offend/etc. anyone, but it makes no sence to me)
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What I know:
Since I have been using the new server (the minute it was created) there have been 0 netsplits. While on quakenet there have been more than i care to count. Just because some people see no significant lag decrease doesnt mean the switch is useless. The simple fact that WE have control is reason enough to do it. It is impossible to have nostalgia for an IRC network which for all intents and purposes doesnt exist.
Qnet is not a china plate or a statue. It is a fully encumbered network that has PROBLEMS. Generally in dealing with software and computers, when something is broken you UPGRADE.
Being afraid to switch is not a reasonable excuse not to do it. Im pretty sure uncertainty is the real reason behind the issue. The fact is that Qnet is slow whether you choose to believe it or not. The new server is ours, its under our control and that should be enough to convince anyone. All arguments against the switch are baseless and ignorant.
Fearing that ops will spy on you is just about as silly as thinking the tv steals your brainwaves. If youre REALLY talking about something you dont want others to know about, you would know how to do it securely. Not wanting to switch because you know youll have to learn more irc commands to keep talking behind people's backs is pretty f***in lame if you ask me.
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I'll reassure everyone here. There is NO WAY that we can spy on people's chat without you knowing, if that's what people are worried about.
And this is only for channels. We can view the list of channels, we can see what channels people are using but if we wanted to listen to chat happening in a certain channel we would have to join like everyone else, and everyone there would see the join message. There are no "special commands" that would allow us to listen to chat secretly.
As for PM's, they are even more secure. There is no way for anyone to tell if two people are having a PM, and no way to listen to the contents of a PM.
The only things we can directly see are this:
- When you connect, the server sends a notice saying 'Client connecting: <hostname> <nickname>' where hostname and nickname are your real hostmask and nickname.
- When you identify Services will put out a message to the IRCops saying that <nickname> has identified with NickServ.
- We can list the channels you're in as well as your real hostname/IP. Anyone else can list the channels you're in as well through a /whois, and the only reason we would need your real hostname or IP is if we needed to add a G line (which has not been a problem of course).
Even then, it's more likely that your conversation could be sniffed while in transit by someone else. For that reason it's generally not a good idea to transmit credit card numbers, bank information, etc... through IRC.
If you want a secure / encrypted connection to IRC, connect to irc.outpostuniverse.net on port 6697. You have to have SSL support in your client for this to work.
The only things that I can see which could be confusing / bewildering to people are:
-- NickServ / ChanServ. It's different, but if you've ever used irc on one of the big networks like DALnet they're almost exactly the same. IMHO they're easier to use than Q and L. When I first used IRC I used to connect to DALnet so I knew the services pretty well (and you could figure them out really easily). When I started connecting to Quakenet it seemed like it took ages before I understood the purpose of Q and L. (It was also strange that Q could handle both nickname 'registration' -- you don't own your nickname as well as channel management).
ChanServ is a lot more powerful than L / Q in many ways. Let me put it this way -- it's good enough that we don't need the bot for channel management. The bot is now just there for stats logging and games in the Lobby.
You can get a list of all the commands by typing /ns help for NickServ, and /cs help for ChanServ. You can get help on a specific command by putting the command after 'help', ex: /ns help update
-- The strange user and channel modes you see. For example, the ~, &, and % symbols.
The server has a good help system built right in for these, which you can see a list of categories by typing /helpop.
If you type /helpop umodes you can see a list of all the user modes and what they mean.
If you type /helpop chmodes you can see a list of all the channel modes and what they mean.
-- Lag / netsplits. Yes, for many people the lag is really bad since we only have two servers set up at the moment. However, this should change after we get more servers in different parts of the world. As I've said before, if you are in good standing with the community (that is, you've been around for a while) and have a server running either Linux or Windows, as well as a broadband internet connection, we can put something like that to use to setup another IRC server in your area and link it to our network.
We wouldn't need to have administrator / root however we would need to be able to request that certain software / libraries are installed, or be able to do this ourselves.
We would need some kind of remote access / SSH however so we can log into the server and set up the IRC server ourselves.
As for netsplits, they have only happened one time and that was really on purpose. (I changed some settings on the servers and had to /SQUIT and then /CONNECT them to get them to start using the new settings, causing a 5-10 second netsplit). Any scheduled maintenance of this type will be broadcast through the "Global" bot before it happens, and we will broadcast another message when the maintenance is complete.
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Like I've said before, I would think running our own IRC server would be a plus. If you have a problem with anything, for example if you don't understand how something works or have problems with the services, just come to the #admin channel and ask away. Or ask us directly for that matter.
You can come to one of us directly, we won't bite. You don't have to go through some strange process like you would on Quakenet to talk to an IRCop (join #help, present your request, get a 'ticket' from a bot to join #feds ...)
We are available and everyone knows how to get to us.
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Viva la Change.
I have absolutely no problem with the change:
Network runs beautifully - no lag (I'm in Australia).
I don't use the serv's that often, but I am familiar with Chan/Nickserv. Never used Q or L.
I also agree with DM-Horus' comments about nostalgic feelings about a VIRTUAL network.
And remember, a change is like a Holiday.
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We arent going to sit here and squabble over the details we wanted a new server we got a new server we arent going to waste it as a back up server that wont be used because people are to stubourn to just accept change.
I never expected to read something like this from an opu team member. How am I supposed to trust someone who isn't open for a debate?
Its not that I don't like the new network, I just like Quakenet so much. If you don't like Quakenet thats ok with me, but please don't shout it in my face all the time, you won't change my mind, you will just make me angry. If you were kind to me you'd make me feel better about a possible change.
I'm usually not at places where I feel bad.
If I did hurt anyone's feelings during the whole debate, I want to apologize now. I only wanted to lay out some points that you seemed to ignore.
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lol, this is all just reminding me of the Flamer Warriors site now.
TH, it is obvious that the OPU team has made a firm decision here, however they were not prepared to go into a debate when announcing this change. Now, if you wish to stay on Quakenet you are more than welcome to, but I do not believe you will get in as many games than if you join everyone on the other server.
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Quite right, CK9. A decision was made and put into action. Starting a debate after the fact is pointless and childish and is the basis for the feelings of the admins in this regard. This issue was never meant to be argued about and if you want to then you are welcome in a one on one discussion with the admins. The server change has already happened. Any debate is moot.
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You know, this debate was actually started by an admin.
I wouldn't exactly say the change has happened, more like underway, since the quakenet channels still tend to have more users in them then on the new server.
And why shouldn't this be debated? Hounestly, I don't really trust the admin team as much as I used too, and you guys trying to make decisions without involving the community doesn't make it better.
I still like the new server and think we should change, I just hate the admins attitude at times...
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Simple solution to the problem.
See who goes onto which server.
In a months time from now we can see how many users are on each server, then if we want to rethink our ideas do it then. Or if someone want to make the point that we shouldn't of switched make it then.
I'm guessing there will be alot of people connected to both servers.
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Either way, the damage is done
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We should keep the QuakeNet channel, just in case someone there decides to see if a #Outpost2 on that server (which is very popular) exists, and then they'll get pointed toward OPU.
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we have allready said we will keep the quakenet channel but the main channel people should use for chat and playing is on our server.
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Yeah, Yeah.. I'm here.
Quit squabbling. Or Whatever.
Pretty much- this is how it lays down:
Lev (the Admin) starts a post and asks the general opinion. Chris, Horus (the Mod) says it's not to be discussed- and it's already been decided.
Excuse me??
Personally- I feel that it should be left up to the community- whatever we decide. Just the fact that something's available doesn't mean it has to be put to swift and immediate use. I find it pretty insulting that we'd be forced to move if things are fine the way they were.
Not insulting enough to boycott or anything, lol..
I rarely get netsplits when I'm on IRC via Quakenet. Ever. I see other people get them often enough- but that's their perogative to move. I, however feel that we should stick with what we know. I've always been opposed to an individual member holding the community in the palm of their hand, because I was here for the Xfir overthrow. You're giving power now where it never has before- one individual controlling the ENTIRE community- via IRC and Web. I don't like it at all, it's not good business practice to <insert euphemism here that means to invest all your funds in one particular vehicle>!
It's just not safe.
I think the idea that we have memories here and such is a damn good one. I don't think we should be patronized because we have been here long enough to have memories about the things that have 'gone down' in the channels. Really. If you don't feel that way- you've either not been here long enough, or just simply have no feeling towards this community as a whole at all...
I have a lot more to say - but I've got a meeting...
-Chris
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Well.. this deserves a second post.
I see my resistance was futile ;D.. you guys decided to move anyway.
-Chris
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hmmm this give me an idea..... we could use the Quakenet server for fun... People are always complaining about useing bots or spamming.... well open up the quakenet server for spamming and bot fun :-)
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I think the idea that we have memories here and such is a damn good one. I don't think we should be patronized because we have been here long enough to have memories about the things that have 'gone down' in the channels. Really. If you don't feel that way- you've either not been here long enough, or just simply have no feeling towards this community as a whole at all...
I have a lot more to say - but I've got a meeting...
-Chris
I'd rather think of it as memories from OPU than memories from Quakenet, and I've been here long enough to remember what has gone down in the channels, and I bloody hell care about this community, I've spendt almost 2 years here already.
Sometimes, you also let old things go to give place for new and perhaps better things, we're still the same community, and we still have the memories. (lots of logs included)
The biggest problem I see with the change is that alot of people have a big distrust in the admins, and with our history that is perfectly rational.
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The reason i posted the poll was because they moved server with out posting on forum to see what people wanted before hand.