Outpost Universe Forums
Projects & Development => GORF => Hall of Fame => Topic started by: omagaalpha on March 30, 2006, 02:18:54 PM
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Cargo lander
Related ideas:
- none
Table content
- Seed starter module (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?showtopic=2782)
- Cargo lander (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?act=ST&f=61&t=2783)
- Colonist Lander (http://forum.outpostuniverse.net/index.php?act=ST&f=61&t=2784)
Description:
Orignal from outpost 1, it has all basic suppley for coloney. When command center is completed you can choose land this.
I. it capable of storeing follow stuff
A. 5000 ore
B. 5000 food
C. as well (genetic datababk)
D. clothing
E. Tools
F. also AI computer to help in tasks
G. other basic stuff. (sorry no units in this one)
------------------------below new additon---------------------------------
It would use when create coloney from outspace to deliever supply for struture and a cargo truck and convex to build a first building.
Also think since high storage ores that can use transport mass smelter ore/food to another coloney/base.
-->will be use in game to transport miltiary unit to enemy base<-----
This is a good idea, because:
- add realise and make like the coloney start from outspace
This is a bad idea, because:
- to complex for beginning of game
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More ore and more food, you send 10000 common ore, 10000 rare ore, 10000 food, why not get them all when you land?
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How about space issues? I don't think that these ores are that dense.
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lol problem could not hold that many but issuse solve when final deceided ideas to use
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sort of like a space based cargo truck. not a bad idea. it would emphasize resource stockpiling in the game. i dont know how well it would work since most players are likely to use every ounce of every resource they have instead of stashing it away for later. most multiplayer games dont last long enough to have large amounts of leftovers. might work well in a custom campaign though.
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This clearly isnt a multiplayer vec. The problem with storing in a place or unit that you cant access right away means you have to wait and that wait could mean the doom of your colony.
Possiblities of this vec are Trade of good between players in larger quanities. How ever there is a problem if you want some realism.
Ore is heavy s*** the size of a rocket or engine you would need to move that ammount of ore would be very BIG. Just to get 4 people and about 50 ton in space now takes those 2 solid booster and that big orange tank of liquid O2. Now you have to add on the weight of the fuel as well.
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I think, omaga meant it not to be built in game, but to be landed in the very beginning of the campaign when arriving on a new planet.
What you are talking about is a cargo transport rocket. And since in op2 a rocket can launch 10000 ore into space, it might be realistic.
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Plus you are assumming earthling technology level. They have better rocket technoloogy for Cargo Lander so it quite capabile of lift that much ore.
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Rocket tech can only be so good What does that 10000 units mean Tons mega tone pounds. if tons 10000 ton is very heavy and getting some thing that heavy off the surface of landing it would never happen dont care how good your rockets are your going to need alot of them. in landing you have to break the fall basicly Escape Velocity in reverse kinda. Then taking off would be insane to reach EV.
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Ore is heavy s*** the size of a rocket or engine you would need to move that ammount of ore would be very BIG. Just to get 4 people and about 50 ton in space now takes those 2 solid booster and that big orange tank of liquid O2. Now you have to add on the weight of the fuel as well.
Who's to say it has to be anything like today's rocket booster technology?
The Conestoga used ion propulsion engines instead of solid-rocket boosters.
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The problem with ion propulsion is that I think it uses a small amount of fuel, but it DOES add up over a bit of time. It's better for long distance interstellar travel... however it might be possible to like, fly around the planet until you've gotten enough speed....... That could take too long though....
What about a catapult of some sort? ;)
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Well, I don't say it has to use ion propulsion, but it can use technologies that we know exist but haven't been constructed yet.
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if this is to be launched from the planet and stored in space it basicly needs chemical rocket fuel, nothing else has the raw thrust required (no not even nuclear, its because with chemical the fuel itself provides both the mass and energy for propulsion, meaning the more mass put in, the more energy comes out, with other systems such as nuclear it uses a reactor to heat a working fluid to produce thrust, thus the more fluid the less energy a givin volume of fluid has and the less efficent the rocket)
a cargo pod of this size would weigh easily upwards of 1000 tonnes, with a conventual rocket system the energy required to put that amount of mass in even low orbit would be on bar with a mid grade atom bomb going off at the launch site
op2 got away with this because it launced the parts in piecemeal, no one part would weigh much over 200 tonnes thus the blast on the launch pad would be limited, as well as the fuel necessary to be carried on board
frankly from an engineering stand point building a reliable launch platform able to lift such a payload would be an extremely daunting task, expecially if it would have to use current launch platforms and have close proxcemity to the coloney (in fact the blast wave produced from the launch would make it nessacary for the launch pad to be many miles away from the rest of the coloney)
even if they are on a planet with a lower gravity and a thinner atmosphere I dont think the coloney would wish to spend the resources developing and building such a rocket if the current systems are reusible and are able to do the same job, albit over many trips
now if the coloney decides to further alternitive meathods of getting into space, such as a space teather, or a mass driver thats another story altogather
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well there use tracker beam from out space pull up ship so no fuel is need.
Still point out that just because not fesible to you does not mean in the future they will not be able to lift that much into orbit with not lot of fuel.
After all in atosmphere solid rocket fuel is not only option. So could use different boost ship until point moleclue too far part for a method to work.
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excuse me...what?
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Just to point out...
Tokamaks.
Fusion Drive.
Obviously, by the time this game takes place, Fusion technology is already understood and applied. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that their rockets are capeable of using fusion drive, rather then the current chemical rockets we have now.
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point too Baikon --that what I was try to say
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hm, if we keep getting all these great ideas... and we implement them in the game... we will need to figure out what they will look like ;)
but that's for later :)..
I like all these ideas; we're really moving along with them aren't we?
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ok, heres the thing about fusion, yes it has a very high specific impulse, but it dosnt have the raw thrust to lauch a rocket from the surface
its not a matter of technology, its a matter of physics and chemistry
and anyways the energy required to launch somthing the size of this cargo lander would be in the range of a mid level nuclear bomb, the blast wave alone from the launch would be enough to flatten even a CC from many miles away
I like the idea of cargo, but I think it should be launched piecemeal, like it was for the starship
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In my humble opinion, the fusion drives work like this - fusion core supplies energy and gives it out to ionize the "fuel". Thus, it is just ion drive, which does use fusion reaction to power itself instead of solar panels. I can't see how else could it work - even the nuclear drives have to work like this (again, IMHO). The only other option I can see is that the working matter would be different, or they wouldn't use ionized particles but the energy itself instead - highly unlikely, because they would have no "mass"...
Rather, I think that for carrying heavy cargo to orbit should be carried out with the use of Massdrivers - those are even being developped in present time. They are very cheap - you eliminate the additional weight of fuel needed to get it on the orbit. In Outpost 1, there is suggested, that a net is based on the orbit to chatch the cargo, but even this shouldn't be necessary. Either way, I think it is the cheapest and fastest way to carry cargo - of course you cannot use it to carry personel or sensitive materials. But for ore, food...
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I say use the vehicle, and have it travel a space teather. Of course, we ould have to assume that research on carbone tubules has progressed rather well
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I say use the vehicle, and have it travel a space teather. Of course, we ould have to assume that research on carbone tubules has progressed rather well
what heck would you do that and what waste of resourser to build tether.
if go like that let assume massive breakthrough in research(revolutionize chemisty and physics) make engines does not give nuclear bomb force out . :P
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In my humble opinion, the fusion drives work like this - fusion core supplies energy and gives it out to ionize the "fuel". Thus, it is just ion drive, which does use fusion reaction to power itself instead of solar panels.
IMO >>>
Nuclear Fusion - The combining of two atoms, usually Deuterium and Tritium (w/e its called) to create a high temperature plasma, normally contained within a magnetic field.
In Fusion Reactors - This plasma is used to superheat water to steam and turn a turbine.
In Fusion Drives - This plasma would be directed by magnetic fields through a thruster, using Neutons 3rd Law "Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction." The "Push" of the plasma back would push the ship forwards.
Ion Drive - Uses electric fields to eject charged particles (Ions) through a thruster, end result as above. (Think TIE from Star Wars - TIE Fighter = Twin Ion Engine Fighter)
<<< IMO
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Don't ion drives emit small particles at small speeds, but after a while, they add up a LOT (like I said earlier). This can make a more efficient interstellar/above planet engine, but there is no way to get it to launch off the ground. First, the ion has to give the ship momentum. When it isn't even counter-acting gravity, it for sure won't move a multi-ton (hehe) cargo load.
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Current ion drives put out a force about the weight of a peice of paper on yourhand, its used for long distances as mentioned. It can't do any kind of surface lauch. An orion engine might ;)
I do like the idea of a lander for the campain or some kind of epic multiplayer setting. Heck I liked the whole idea of deciding what to load onto the ship before it leaves Earth. While obviously applicable for a single player game, I can see this being used for some multiplayer games as well with each player loading their own spaceship, or players agree on a single loadout and thne it is devided into half (or whatever the case may be).
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I smell a whole new gametype - each player chooses what to load their starship with, lands on the planet, and builds their colony from the beginning, and plays to a certain outcome from there). I too liked in OP1 where it let you start from the beginning rather than just start off a few years later.
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Remember your physics tho if you want some thing that going to be super heavy to take off youll need either a Orbital elevator (Huge f***ing elevator) or A launch force that would rival a small star exploding.
oh yes before i forget dont give me any s*** about the god damn ION DRIVE there only ment to be used in SPACE not for f***ing lift offs and landing.
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Aye, I think it would be a great option to have avalable. One oculd also tie it to difficulty setting, hard setting means there is less room and money avalable for initial loadout.
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Didn't Op1 have a mass driver? That could be brought back as well as an alternative. Someoen mentioned there are going to be more factions in this game, maybe they could use it instead of a launch base?
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Orbital Elevator and Mass Driver are basicly the same thing But for the Weight that is talked about here it would be f***ing huge
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Oh right, I forgot what was origionally talked about =P
Payloads would have to be smaller, yes I agree.
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The SLVs and RLVs in OP2 can take 10000 ore. Use something close to that as a payload. i.e. A Laser Lynx costs say 300 ore (I can't remember exactly). Therefore it takes up 300 "ore" of space.
So, you basically can take 1 Laser lynx and 9700 ore.
A convec costs, say, 500, and a CC 2800
Now you can take a CC in a Convec, 1 Laser lynx and 6400 ore.
etc. etc. etc.
Sure - take 33 lynx, but then you can't build anything...
Edit: Added that this calculation is from OP2 - payloads may be bigger, etc...
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you need a Structure Fact to build things a CC just wont cut it. And there is no way you could know the weight or the Vecs and the Construction packs But you have to assume that the Ore and Food units go in Tons. But the Take off of the RLV And SLV are rockets not Ion drives for sure.
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hmmm.
Mass might be something to add to the game in general as it could be used for a lot of different things from payload launch to unit physics.
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I agree with that - ie you shoot a Lynx with a laser it only damages it, you detonate a starflare next to it, it flips over, you shoot a Tiger with a laser it only damages it, you detonate a starflare it only damages it, you detonate a Supernova it knocks the unit onto its back
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Uh i dont think a super nova has that kinda power to lift a tank off the ground thats some only the biggest bombs can do. For every reaction there is a opposite but equal reaction. For a tiger to be lifted and rolled the explosion its self eould have to be equal to or greater then the force required to lift the tiger past the point of no return. I dont think having such a complex physics is needed at all. Those kind physic should only be used in FPS and any kind of racing game or sim
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I agree with Freeza. How many RTS games do you see with physics THAT complex. However, some physics should be put in (ie a tiger can't go as fast uphill as a lynx, but a tiger can climb steeper hills than a lynx)
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yea, we want to keep physics simulation as limited as possible.
Its not at all suitable for an RTS. Imagine that the engine will have to render about 500 tanks in some cases, PLUS calculate paths and behaviour.
If we included physics the game would probably only run on high-end comps which many people don't have.
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The SLVs and RLVs in OP2 can take 10000 ore. Use something close to that as a payload. i.e. A Laser Lynx costs say 300 ore (I can't remember exactly). Therefore it takes up 300 "ore" of space.
So, you basically can take 1 Laser lynx and 9700 ore.
A convec costs, say, 500, and a CC 2800
Now you can take a CC in a Convec, 1 Laser lynx and 6400 ore.
etc. etc. etc.
Sure - take 33 lynx, but then you can't build anything...
Edit: Added that this calculation is from OP2 - payloads may be bigger, etc...
another ore take less space so more can fit in easly so can't see have thatmany more like 10
for need at beginning
4 convex(factory, comand center, commone smelter, power source)
bulldozer
4 cargo truck (2 1000 food, 2 1000 common )
miner
earthworm
survey
also topic kindya gone offtopic lol
Question obvously seem that ion drive do not work for lauching if you want go on realism. So question what would be closer realism engine for porpelling it? How space around lunch pad for spaceport need for this so it can acuraler save space for it need form lunching it?
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Honestly, I can say I REALLLY LOVE TO SEE THIS Idea in place in a multiplayer game where you can bring what you want with you when u do a game, Like a advanced land rush :D because you can choose where you want to go and land it there. also Remember the Seed factory used some metals but also you guys got to remember the PLASTICS, The hard plastics, and the soft plastics, cause not all units in the game used heavy metal youd think that Eden and Plymouth used plastics where they could to cut down on ore use, so a starting convec could use alot more plastics in the game so that they could cut down on the weight and ore use in exchange for durablity and longlitivy, however a tank or lynx you just cant get around using the metals cause its a tank, and no one wants to say well, I need a plastic tank, HAHHAAH, yah...., :-P, (be me tho to kill those rats) but you rly only need One convec and a seed factory that stores the struture kits, to build them one by one, CC first, Then Ore, Then Struc, Then from the struc factory u build everything else :D, Simple :),
Also on a different note, Why not be able to use the starship as a orbital platform you know in multiplayer and single player games for something like loading stuff onto the starship like ore and stuff and u can build a factory on it to drop in reinforcements or something, or non military units, idk, i just think that u should be able to use ur starship for something rather then leaving it to rot in space and eventaly die when it starts to go into a unstable orbit even tho the fusion drives could stablize it nicely :D
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Units would not be made of plastics. They need to be durable and the weapons would just go right through them and BOOM INSTA KILL. plastic is for sports cars.
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yea, we want to keep physics simulation as limited as possible.
Its not at all suitable for an RTS. Imagine that the engine will have to render about 500 tanks in some cases, PLUS calculate paths and behaviour.
If we included physics the game would probably only run on high-end comps which many people don't have.
Yes, physics would need to be kept as simple as possible.
The most would probably be where Chandler said, a tiger is slower than a lynx but can negotiate steeper terrain.
The engine is already going to be pumping out polygons left and right as yes there could easily be 500 units on screen, but don't forget other stuff like the terrain itself, and any effects (smoke, environmental effects).
There's no real gain to using a full blown physics engine in an RTS anyway, just extra bloat (of both size and speed).
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As for plastics, where could they get the resources to make plastics? Unless they find underground oil reserves like on earth it probably isn't going to happen - the game makes no mention of oil reserves.
I could see them using plastics for the more basic units since they didn't need them to be shielded against weapons (that wasn't till later that weapons buildup started happening, and then they needed protection).
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As far as the amount of material you can load into a rocket, it's got to be size limited. You only have so much physical room in the rocket. One way I could see of doing this is kinda like the game Starcraft, where they have a grid to show what's inside a dropship. The grid is subdivided into 8 squares I believe. Small units take up 1 square, medium sized units take up 2 squares, large units take up 4 squares. This means you could fit 8 small units (like SCVs - again this is a starcraft example), 4 medium units (vultures, goliaths), or 2 large units (tanks), as well as any combination of these.
(Not that I'm saying it needs to be like starcraft) but that is how they space limited the cargo amount. Of course it's not that realistic since they assume a fixed size-to-weight ratio, so OP3 could choose to have it go by weight instead (or a combination of the two).
All I'm saying is, I'm sure that a tiger takes up more room than a scout. A limitation like this also prevents people from abusing the lander size to drop massive military force all over the map (for example they might be able to do research to drop the metals cost of the tiger, lowering its weight) -- but the tiger wouldn't actually get any smaller in size. Thus don't expect to load more tigers on after it gets made cheaper.
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You could make the game require those new physics cards ;)
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A limitation like this also prevents people from abusing the lander size to drop massive military force all over the map (for example they might be able to do research to drop the metals cost of the tiger, lowering its weight) -- but the tiger wouldn't actually get any smaller in size. Thus don't expect to load more tigers on after it gets made cheaper.
You know that sounds like a good idea cause if u have those grids plus weight it will rly limit alot. cause if u only pack military and one builder ur going to screw urself over cause u need those mining buildings and miners and cargo trucks and all those other units :). so :D
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the one thing I can think of this being used for is for people to land a bunch of nova's eather right on top of, or right outside your base, kind of a cheap kill in my book
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yes like one per spaceport
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Units could also sustain damage from such a landing and/or be frozen for a good few seconds after field deployment. You could explain that with the rough landing, the vehicle AI need recalibration or whatever -- as far as gameplay it will help balance things out.
Another idea is to have a launch warning when a cargo lander is launched and maybe even a trajectory projection of where it could land that would get more accurate the closer the lander is to landing. This can be improved with tech, satellites, and the observatory structure. Maybe the eden meteor laser could have a chance of shooting it down?
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Since you have to deploy them one at a time i think you would have the problem of them just being mass raped on exit. or the Lander itself being EMPed.
That is the one thing that makes me think this idea isnt good its a Air unit in a Outpost game Airunits are definatly not op2 that is for sure and if op3 is to reflect apon op2 and op1 then i dont think a air unit of any kind is good. The SULV and RLV are space vecs.
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I thought we where only going to use this though at the start of the game as a way to allow ppl to customize what they want to land on the planent :) but it would be nice to be able to use the starship as a crutch for the colony, like u can use it for something...
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Personal against usually military vehicle in cargo lander. Don't think we should use as miiltiy vehicle in lander peroid.
Maybe non military vehicle like for move convecs and cargo truck and supply to other bases or new areas .
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Not use it at all. This is customation of a Land rush game isnt cool at all. Every one starts out with the same s*** and goes on from there not every one starts out with what ever they want to rush tigers faster.
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update made some change description and idea.
but also empahse it be no tranport for miltary units.
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You could only send non miliatry units as omaga said. Why would they have compleated tigers on the ship when they left New Terra?