Outpost Universe Forums
Community => Feedback/Suggestions/Problems => Topic started by: zhukant on December 28, 2005, 06:39:01 PM
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HOLD ON
Before you vote, please scroll down to Freeza's post on evidence of Moogle's bad behaviour. I feel this poll is unfair to the people who are opposed to the lifting of the ban, so I urge you to read the evidence before you vote.
I have decided to stay my course, and vote for the first one, because we are all a family, and should be able to tolerate things such as Moogle acting up occasionally. Banning people bears a negative effect on all of OPU, not just the victim of the ban.
With all due respect,
zhukant
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Agree!
I don't think a "ban" should be used as a solution for whatever problem or whatever behavior someone was/is having in the main channel. Maybe he did something really bad and we weren't there to accuratelly assess the "gravity of his behavior". Even if he was "acting up", I think he has been punished long enough.
Come to think of it, we can't really ban people for a long time; we are a pretty small community and such decision doesn't give a good image of us.
Yeah, something else: You shouldn't just write "Moogle." Write his all nick (MoogleKupoHax) ;) I used to confuse him with MogyMog.
Edit: word choice: assess instead of access.
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I don't think a "ban" should be used as a solution for whatever problem or whatever behavior someone was/is having in the main channel. Maybe he did something really bad and we weren't there to accuratelly access the "gravity of his behavior". Even if he was "acting up", I think he has been punished long enough.
Ever scince I was born I have been labled with "behavior problems"
Come to think of it, we can't really ban people for a long time; we are a pretty small community and such decision doesn't give a good image of us.
Yes it has been a long punishment... several months now...?
Yeah, something else: You shouldn't just write "Moogle." Write his all nick (MoogleKupoHax) ;) I used to confuse him with MogyMog.
I was woried about The MogyMog name confusion when he joined... admins didnt agree with me on that...
BTW... MoogleKupoHax = Haxtor on the forums :-P
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Well i guess i dont have much room to say anything becuase ive been gone a long time ( lol ). But i'd like to know what he was doing to deserve a ban... i mean really i didnt know what was up. anyway i vote the 'dont isolate...' ( the first one) but ill be watching you um...haxtor!? that is if i can stay on irc.... ugh
im for second chances!!! or third... or fourth.... or 5th... or 6th... or omg NVM!!!
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ThEsuperteCH
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EDIT:
P.S what is with the /I thingy in my 'signature'!?!?! when i preveiw the post its not there... oh well
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Ditto.
I think the punishment was long enough, I mean come on, if anyone gets out of hand, I think we all can calm people down, As long as we keep our cool we can mediate people and it will work out.
I Second (or whatever) the movemnt to unban moogle.
Nothing personal,
stormy
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it might be wise to state why exactly he has been banned in the past. I have heard something about him threatening toleave OPU but nothing else really so I can't tell if he deserves the ban or not- but I do think that it shouldn't be done-the community is tiny as it is and a ban should be used ONLY if he deserves it and only for a certain length (ie a month or 2) and then see if he still deserves it b/c banning him might make him change his attitude
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Ok, I've thought about it and decided to add this. It may not be the whole story, and may not even be true as far as I know, but since people requested it, I'll add a quote from the IRC channel. Here it is:
[13:51] <zhukant> what happened to make him get banned?
[13:51] <OPU|Leviathan> he kept being spaming or somthing
[13:52] <Sirbomber> He was being, well, moogle....
[13:52] <zhukant> and you couldn't work anything out?
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> correct
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> we told him many times to stop
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> but he did it yet again
[13:52] <zhukant> Do you know why he did it?
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> cuz hes moogle
[13:52] <OPU|Leviathan> and i am me
[13:53] <OPU|Leviathan> get it?
[13:53] <zhukant> not really
[13:53] <OPU|Leviathan> were all ourselves
[13:53] <OPU|Leviathan> he didnt want to listen to our rules
[13:56] <OPU|Leviathan> sorry that it had to come to this
[13:56] <Sirbomber> Yeah
[13:57] <OPU|Freeza-CII> all i am going to say moogle was getting out of hand and we kept giving him another chance to try to not do those thing but it was futile and he started to get worse and we just got tired of it
[13:57] <OPU|Leviathan> rite
[13:57] <OPU|Leviathan> somthin like that
[13:58] <OPU|Leviathan> shame aint it
[13:58] <OPU|Leviathan> :(
[14:00] <OPU|Freeza-CII> but any way moogle has said and threatened to leave the OPU before but he always comes back'
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> and we hope he never leaves
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> its a shame when we lose anyone
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> yet it happens often
[14:01] <OPU|Leviathan> makes me sad!
I will not hesitate to delete it shall I be asked to.
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Well you people dont know the evidence and what moogle had didnt to get banned in the first place. This poll kinda makes it look like you are trying to blame the ops of having to much power and many people are going to vote for the ban being lifted because alot thing that we do have to much power.
And plus you all based a vote that is only on the present evidence that was presented. We didnt really want to have to explain every little detail because we thought the community would scream out that we are just being assholes and just hate moogle so we are dumping him.
If you want evidence ill try to compile as much as i can and then you can see. This might take a while tho seeming how i am the only op on most the time.
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You may have considered making a poll to ban Moogle with all the evidence before actually doing it. Banning people is not something to be taken lightly. Serious matters require serious discussions. I thought we already learned that after the xfir incident?
Secondly, Moogle says you didn't warn him before banning him. I don't know if this is true, but it's out there.
You're welcome to post a new poll with more evidence, of course. But please, exercise your power with caution in the future. It's not called a community for nothing.
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We didnt take this lightly. People dont need to be banned. but in moogles case it was warrented. Please dont make this sound as if we banned him on a whim.
Dont bring up the Xfir crap this isnt the same. This is not a Coupdetat. to remove a op because of power abuse over the forums.
I know I didnt warn him that he was going to be banned. But we were feed up with all the crap that he was doing.
Ill present the evidence as soon as possible i am tired of defending the "OPS" Desicion to ban him. The Evidence will be presented but i am telling you right now read it word for word dont just skim. That is very important. might be a day or to for me to get it all.
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Why is Freeza the only op who wants me banned?
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I don't really think he wants anybody banned. I just think he wants to justify why you have been banned.
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OK folks here is some reading for you i kept the intergity of the logs but having extra lines and no editing of any kind.
http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/Log...e-Evidence..txt (http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/Logs/Moogle-Evidence..txt)
That is the Evidence that i collected on my desktop there might be more on my laptop but each log file is a bout 15 megs long.
http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/Logs/ (http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/Logs/)
There is evidence there. Read all the evidence closely dont skim. That is important that you understand every thing. Thank you.
Also youll find a log of 3 of us OPs in the wrong I put that in there because it shows that we are a little mean some times.
Why is Freeza the only op who wants me banned?
I don't really think he wants anybody banned. I just think he wants to justify why you have been banned.
First of all I am trying to get the poll to be a little more fair with all the evidence presented not just todays little blurb. This is nothing personal moogle I am just doing my job as a OP and I am the only one to say any thing because I am the only one on at the moment.
There is a log on the laptop but i have not yet got it from my logs.
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Im sorry that it came to this. We never had to ban anyone before for more than a day from the main channel.
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First of all, we should NOT be putting up polls to ban people. It's not a popularity contest. If people are breaking the rules or causing trouble, they need to be dealt with. Having to make polls and wait for people to vote only undermines the powers of ops to deal with these situations. If we did that, we might as well not have ops.
Freeza is not the only op that wanted him banned, nor is it only the ops that want him banned. Most of the people who support the ban don't seem like like saying so publicly so they don't sound like assholes to everyone. Further, this isn't just one situation, but rather a long long string of events over a period of months. Moogle/Haxtor has already had many chances, and he's screwed them all up so far. Whenever this idea of evidence comes up, my first thought is I sure hope it's not me that gets stuck going through all the log files to find it all. You have no idea what a chore that would be to find all the times he's caused trouble. I'm pretty sure what Freeza has dug up is not all of it.
We've tried many times to deal with the situation, but all too often Moogle just isn't willing to listen. He especially seems to like trying to get around rules by playing with words. He'll find some statement that's a little too specific in it's wording, although the meaning is very clear, and he'll change that one little insignificant detail and keep being a pain in the ass. And he doesn't stop until you rephrase the rule he's breaking. Then he either finds another detail to be a pain in the butt about or complains about you "changing" the rules. And then when you finally do kick him or ban him, he screams "abuse of power" to no end.
Personally I think arguing about rules in that manner should be an instant ban. No serious site puts up with crap like that.
And for those of you concerned about keeping the community together, what about people he may be driving away? A lot of people don't like putting up with him, or his random abuse. People don't like the random swearing, insults, and violent sounding pokes/attacks. If we want to keep the community together, we need to keep this stuff out of the main channel.
Btw, the length of time he's been banned for has been exagerated. It's been at most a month, and probably less. Even still, he's not banned from all channels. (And I've noticed he was able to reply in this thread). As for when the ban will be lifted, it has been partially lifted a while ago already. If his behaviour remains good, it may be lifted in time. Although, some people feel he's already been given yet another chance he doesn't deserve with the partial lifting of the ban. Personally I'd rather not see the ban remain permanent, nor do I enjoy the fact that it's happened, but I still feel it's too soon to lift it.
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We're not voting to ban him, we're voting to unban him. ;)
Yeah, I say he needs more time. Nothing personal.
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Forgive me if this has already been adressed, but I think it's an important point that a lot of people forget:
While we are still a community, there are Moderators and Administrators for a reason. They never have 'too much' power. I don't believe such a concept exists. While I do believe that there is the possibility of abusing ones power, I don't think that this is the case here nor am I in a place to really be a good judge of that. I wasn't there and there are always two sides to a story.
Personally, I believe that if a particular persons behavior is severe enough, warnings are not necessary. Again, in this particular case I'm in no position to make that determination.
In this case, I know from personal experiance that Moogle can sometimes be roudy and at times even beligerent. Does that warrant a ban? Maybe. I don't know. How long should the ban be? Again, I don't know.
I trust the decisions of our moderators and I believe that there is no injustice made here. Why should there be a need for evidence? 'Evidence' should only be presented if there's a clear abuse of power which as far as I can see here has not happened.
It can be frustrating to see the moderators constantly being questioned as to their decisions. With Moogle (sorry, Moog, but it's from experience), I don't even have to ask why he ended up banned. I can deduce from prior experience that he got beligerent and the Ops made an executive decision. Done. Was it right? I don't know. Is it my decision? Not really. Should I care? Unless it was an abuse of power, no. Not at all. I should help to support both the Admin's as well as the user who was banned (sometimes users are beligerent without even knowing it... like me!) And if it means that Moogle is banned for a week from #outpost2 so be it. It's just a week. (of course, I don't know the time frame so I'm just guessing).
I hope my point is clear and I also hope that I'm not coming off as an irritated ass this time... :heh:
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Moogles situation is a progressive thing. He was given many chances he didnt change end of story.
I only presented evidence to make this poll fair. Not just LET MOOGLE GO FREE. With no explanation of why he was banned in the first place. And judging by the responses in that short time it was clear people didnt know why he was banned.
I dont want to hear any more about Community Togetherness. Its about the good of the community not having the most numbers we can get.
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If people are breaking the rules or causing trouble, they need to be dealt with.
f it.
We've tried many times to deal with the situation, but all too often Moogle just isn't willing to listen. He especially seems to like trying to get around rules by playing with words. He'll find some statement that's a little too specific in it's wording, although the meaning is very clear, and he'll change that one little insignificant detail and keep being a pain in the ass. And he doesn't stop until you rephrase the rule he's breaking. Then he either finds another detail to be a pain in the butt about or complains about you "changing" the rules. And then when you finally do kick him or ban him, he screams "abuse of power" to no end.
Personally I think arguing about rules in that manner should be an instant ban. No serious site puts up with crap like that.
How can I break rules that are constantly changeing over time?
I've asked for the rules to be listed several times.
But it seems that the rules only apply to non-ops. All the time I see ops breaking the rules, Why can't I?
And for those of you concerned about keeping the community together, what about people he may be driving away? A lot of people don't like putting up with him, or his random abuse. People don't like the random swearing, insults, and violent sounding pokes/attacks. If we want to keep the community together, we need to keep this stuff out of the main channel.
Me drive people away?
The only reason I swear or Insult is because I feel that I am under attack or being Insulted myslef.
I'm still quite hurt from the whole monitor humping thing...
There are some things more offensive then what I say that are often the topic in the main chanel
Btw, the length of time he's been banned for has been exagerated. It's been at most a month, and probably less...
A day with out OPU feels like a week, a week is like a year...
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A day with out OPU feels like a week, a week is like a year...
Than quit acting up and acting out. It's not appreciated by anybody. You may think it's funny but there's a very clear line between being funny and instigating trouble. You're not stupid.
The simple phrase "grow up" comes to mind. I do have a good image that I should post up though.
Anyway, I need you to understand that I'm not targetting you. Actually, I'm not even remotely angry or annoyed with you right now. I have no reason to be. But you do need to understand that certain actions have certain consequences.
As far as rules are concerned, it's simple respect. Don't cross peoples' boundaries and you'll be fine. If you don't know where someones' boundaries lie, ask. I can't tell you how many times I've made mistakes but at least I take responsibility for my actions rather than throwing around the "abuse of power" phrase.
EDIT:
As an added note, I'm not voting in this poll because there's no option for "I'm leaving it up to the Admins".
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Rules change alot over time its just a fact of life.
Its because alot of the rules are common sence rules and you were told these rules serveral times and we didnt need any rules to be posted because we warn people.
ENSTATING THE RULES ON OPS IS ALOT HARDER THEN A NON OP! This has been said serveral times so stop whining about that.
Yes moogle a few people have complained about you.
That monitor coil thing was stopped a long time ago.
The insults and cussing is just trying to stop us from enforcing a rule on you that you dont like. Plus there are documented times where you start cussing and saying foul things for randomness. Yes there have been other thinks said but if you see the rest of the topic convo you would notice its a convo not a counter attack or a bit of rude randomness.
A day with out OPU feels like a week, a week is like a year...
I dont like that. That seems like a attempt to gather pitty. that is my opinion.
You ban has only been almost a month and it is a partial ban. Remember moogle it was a Full ban but we decided to give you a chance AGAIN.
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first off all gentlement i got the solution to all your problem.. it is not fancy it is rather.... hum simple (prove of evidence dennis did it on me because he think i was a pain in the ass... actually we both fired up each other..) enyway here is the solution unban him and the one who wanted him to be banned... squelch him if he anoy you squelch him over time the one who dont want to listen to him wont listen to him and the one who care about him will be able to speak with him (thumbsup)
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The ops arent suppose to be ignoring people. If he is ignored by the OPS he can break all the rules he wants and get away with it the partial ban is the simple way. Also we have talk to him before with no positive results.
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yes, ignoring someone when ur a op is a no-no. for the all the s*** he's put up, hes damn lucky its ONLY a partial ban now. he should be kissing our feet sotospeak for only a partial ban, from a full ban(inc. forums and wiki).
so far, all the posts in this thread he has done are a attempt to gather pity.
concerning the thread topic; like hooman says this is not up for debate. leeor is completely correct in saying: While we are still a community, there are Moderators and Administrators for a reason.
If he behaves he may be let into the main channel over time. think of it as probation.
also something freeza posted a while ago: moogle-f***ingoff.mp3 (http://tinyurl.com/9k4pj), 586kb; 5 minutes on TS.
This file has been edited to remove silence. (It was a ~48min file)
ill have to get into my logs when i get back to texas.
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okay, this thread is too boring to read completely. Listen, everyone, moogle was warned, and he was given several chances. I have seen these outbursts, and i find them completely rediculous! Unless he has done something against his word recently, moogle is currently in the process of redeeming himself.
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I guess this was after all a good opportunity to talk about Haxtor behaviour with everybody beeing able to understand why he has been banned.
Still, I don't think the authority of the OPs was the question here. This was just a poll to see who was thinking wether or not the ban should be removed... Just like a petition (not really) you send in the whole neighborhood in order to be heard. "We" or some just wanted to see if the ban decision was fair or not, and I believe with all the evidences Freeza has brought, the ban was justified ...
It will be nice if 1)HaXtor says he was sorry and 2) the OP's remove the ban.
[EDIT] OMG!! I just listened to the TS file... :lol:
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We're not voting to ban him, we're voting to unban him.
My comment was in reference to this comment:
You may have considered making a poll to ban Moogle with all the evidence before actually doing it.
Leeor seems to have expressed many of my thoughts quite clearly here.
It is also not acceptable for an op to simply ignore someone. The ops are there so they can enforce rules. If they're ignoring someone, they don't know if they're breaking the rules and so wouldn't be able to enforce them. If things have degraded to that point the person should most likely be kicked or banned.
If people are breaking the rules or causing trouble, they need to be dealt with.
f it.
f it? And you expect to appeal a ban with that attitude?
How can I break rules that are constantly changeing over time?
I've asked for the rules to be listed several times.
But it seems that the rules only apply to non-ops. All the time I see ops breaking the rules, Why can't I?
You have been repeatedly told the rules over and over, yet you still don't listen. Everytime you are warned about a rule you are breaking, you don't just ignore the ops, but openly insult them and continue to defy them.
Also, if you see someone else breaking a rule, that does not give you permission to do so. In particular, if you see Lev cloning, there is little the rest of us can do about it. Lev "owns" the channel, so we can't ban him from it. Yes, we've brought this issue up with him before. Not that this even matters for your case at hand because again, someone else breaking the rules does not give you permission to do so. If you wish to protest, do so in another thread so as not to cloud the current issue here.
As for that whole cloning issue and rules surrounding it, (ignoring an earlier event when you were clearly told not to clone), there is the following event. IRC logs (http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/Logs/Moogle-incident-12-5-05.txt).
In particular, there are the following two parts (most of the swearing is in the rest of the log):
-23:00:12- (@OPU|ZigZagJoe) only way cloning is accpetable is if it is from a diff loc
-23:00:14- (@OPU|ZigZagJoe) yepper
-23:00:20- (@OPU|Freeza-CII) try to have only one on here at a time pls
-23:00:24- (@OPU|ZigZagJoe) ex. different connection
-23:00:26- (@OPU|ZigZagJoe) yes
-23:00:44- (+MoogleLaptopHax) well im in my room my pc is in the bacement so they are in different locations
-23:00:49- • +CK9 pictures OPU|ZigZagJoe nodding along as OPU|Freeza-CII talks
-23:00:55- (@OPU|Freeza-CII) moogle that dont fly
-23:01:10- (@OPU|ZigZagJoe) but they connect from the same connection; so no pls kill one
-23:01:18- (+CK9) moogle same location = same house
-23:01:25- (+MoogleLaptopHax) brb then
-23:01:29- (@OPU|ZigZagJoe) yes
-23:01:30- (@OPU|ZigZagJoe) ty
-23:01:31- (+CK9) *groan*
-23:01:38- (@OPU|Freeza-CII) hmmm
-23:01:39- (+CK9) he's just going to go outside
-23:06:45- ¹¹º¹ Join» (MoogleKupo) (~SuckitBit@cpe-69-204-122-130.rochester.res.rr.com)
-23:06:50- (MoogleKupo) hey
-23:06:54- (MoogleKupo) im on a different
-23:06:57- (MoogleKupo) location
-23:07:00- (MoogleKupo) b****!
-23:07:01- (@OPU|Freeza-CII) MoogleKupo no cloning
-23:07:07- (@OPU|Freeza-CII) are you still in your house
-23:07:13- (MoogleKupo) no
-23:07:18- (@OPU|Freeza-CII) Right
-23:07:20- (MoogleKupo) im in my boxers in the snow
-23:07:22- (+CK9) are you still on the property your house is on?
-23:07:22- (@OPU|Freeza-CII) i dont buy it
-23:07:28- (MoogleKupo) in my neighbors front yard
Do I really have to explain? Get a clue. Don't piss off the ops and waste their time with this idiocy. This is not the proper way to deal with a rule you don't agree with. You don't continually break the rule and insult the ops hoping to change their minds.
And anyone who thinks our set of rules should have to explicitly say, "no cloning from the same house, or from your neighbors front yard while standing in the snow in your boxers" should be banned for idiocy. <_<
As for trying to gain sympathy, it's not going to work. Allowing you back because people take pity on you would be sending the wrong message. What you've been doing is wrong and won't be tolerated. You can't simply weasle your way out of this situation by making people feel sorry for you. You HAVE to stop what you've been doing. Think about your situation Moogle. You're not in it for no reason. If you're trying to lay blame elsewhere it only tells us that you're not ready to come back.
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Of chorse we want you back hence we have given you chanchs, but you have broken them and then got baned.
If you dont cross the line you dont get baned. Everyone else seams to be ok with it and has not been baned.
I do think we need to put irc rules up somtime but genraly its common sence.
Thx for your post Leeor :)
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I think moogle was a bit crazy. I mean, calm down! Stop the swearing, the stabbing; I got stabbed myself, Although I think i reacted in a good way.
All I can say is, if you have good behaviour moogle, you will get back in at some point. Don't mess it up again!
Nothing personal
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We're not voting to ban him, we're voting to unban him.
My comment was in reference to this comment:
You may have considered making a poll to ban Moogle with all the evidence before actually doing it.
I know, just a little joking around. It seems you missed it though... Oh well.
I think we can all agree that this isn't going anywhere good, and I think it's served its purpose. Maybe somebody should close it soon?
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This topic has served its purpose. We understand the decision enforced by the administration, and are able to verify its rightfullness. With this said, the topic must be closed, the poll aborted, and the results anulled. I call upon an administrator to proceed thus forthwith.
I serve to the benefit of the people, and visibly, this was an error. Your forgiveness for my actions would be welcomed - I did not realize this to be mutiny. I withdraw from this place I have given myself, thinking to be the protector of the community, as I see it is not mine to use, for I know nothing. I trust the administration, and hope they have confidence in their actions. Forgive me once more.
zhukant
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-- Poll removed complety, it is not fair on Moogle that it remains on the forum for all to see. --