Cutting A Player Tube

[Highlander]

I never use the build mark rule. i just build where ever and when ever i want.... so do my opponents. i do how ever use an attack mark. speaking of witch should self destructing a unit or tube cutting be considered in the attack mark?

Personally I consider BM's more important than AM's, since they allow people to chose their appropriate base positions rather than building on the first 1 bar they encounter in open terrain, or to sort out teams/allies on the map.
(If someone builds 30 marks before others then they will probably have weapons 30 marks before the other players as well and thus - GG)


Personally I will attack any unit that enters my immediate base area (As defined by natural cliffs or walls), be that scouts, earthy's or combat vehicles. (Usually I leave surveyors and convecs happening by alone if they don't interrupt my activity)
Whether or not I consider it a mark break depends on the type of vehicles and the actions they take.
- A single SD'ing non-combat vehicle isn't exactly a war declaration and neither are tubecutting. I would give a warning if it happened, if the opponent continues after warning, I probably will retaliate.

[evecolonycamander]

that makes since... what about units sitting on every common/rare ore spot on the map. i find it very annoying when one player takes all of the ore spots

[CK9]

only possible on low-ore/small maps.

it's a legit tactic if they fall within the pre-defined building restrictions.  i remember a few games on rockplain a long while back where most of the time was spent taking and re-taking ore spots.

[evecolonycamander]

i understand this tactic in midis and large maps. nothing else

[CK9]

Have you played rockplain? lol

I don't think there is a single 3 bar common on the map, and maybe 1 or 2 good rare ore spots, which leads to the ore wars.

anyway, I kinda think we should come up with a list of the standards that the older players have come to expect, but the newer players aren't fully aware of.

[evecolonycamander]

yes, we should.

[Highlander]

what about units sitting on every common/rare ore spot on the map. i find it very annoying when one player takes all of the ore spots

I don't mind players staking out their claim on a preferred base spot or an ore location or two. (I.E putting a lynx on top of a good 3 bar between two bases or put a lynx in a bottleneck to deny others entrance to the area beyond)

Taking possession of all mine locations or fully blocking an opponent from expanding is too much though.



Rock Garden as CK is referring to, is a pretty tough map. The only rare ore is in the middle of the map, thus difficult to hold and most often painfully far away. + Dynamix seems to have different ideas than current players how and where to build decent bases

[Freeza-CII]

i would consider suicide bombing or tube cutting to be a covert attack or even better trading them a unit and telling it to attack and then trade it.  Its a attack if it does some thing detrimental to your opponent its a attack.  Now say some one wants to be a dick <looks at sirbomber> and wants to "park" a starflare/nova in your base before the attack mark hopefully you notice this before the attack mark and wonder what the f***. but i would say thats a attack to.  Place ment of military hardware or any units really inside some ones base before the mark would have to be a no go.  But the way i see it.  If you got killed by a earthworker or your convec with the cc got blown up in a suicide mission then you need to work on you observation skills in the game a bit more.  certain things can be avoided.  It is in my opinion a crap way to win or loose. but to put it more blattently its like letting off a giant steamy load in some ones face.  

On the other note of maps new and old.
Seeing as its suppose to be a challenge to build those higher class units the rare ore is suppose to be harder to get then the common such as in rock garden. if you can hold it your pretty much going to win but things that use rare ore usually cost more common to so there is plenty to think about.  How ever out of sheer need to beable to rush and build tigers most player maps have a 2 or 3 bar rare in there base as to make the game speed up abit.  how ever that can lead some some long stalemates and some one wins out of boredom or time.  I would say that newwer maps should be built on the princible that rare ore should be harder to get and that once you get it you have to protect it so you can win. thus adding that multitask of op2 that we love instead of taking it away for the sake of conevience.

[Highlander]

I would say that newwer maps should be built on the princible that rare ore should be harder to get and that once you get it you have to protect it so you can win. thus adding that multitask of op2 that we love instead of taking it away for the sake of conevience.

(thumbsup)  

[Sirbomber]

Great, make the game even more unbalanced for Eden.  Why not just double the strength of Microwaves and remove Lasers while you're at it?

[CK9]

Rock Garden as CK is referring to...

D'oh!  I guess I need to start playing again, I'm forgetting the names, lol

[Highlander]

Great, make the game even more unbalanced for Eden.

Game has always been "balanced" like this.
Plymouth is strong early game, Eden is strong late game.

An Eden without rare is of course a weakened Eden, but it is only slightly inferior to a Plymouth without rare. Sticky and RPG gives Plymouth an advantage true, but in most cases Eden can use terrain to hold out long enough to get rare. (Rock Garden is just about the only map that highly favors Plymouth)

Once Eden gets rare they get the upper hand - big time. (Unless of course you have given your enemy enough time to prepare a lot of ports/missiles (and ore to run them) - then it becomes somewhat more tricky)

[TH300]

There have been times when people didn't play as Eden... I'm glad, that has changed. So lets not make Eden more inferior. And after all it would be boring to play only maps with similar ore distribution. Just lets not make maps where the only rare is at one spot in the middle which is impossible to defend. Maybe even make common ore harder to get (1bar mine in every base, 2 or 3bar at spots which are more difficult to defend).

[evecolonycamander]

i agree... that would be a very interesting twist in the games mechanics

[Arklon]

Once Eden gets rare they get the upper hand - big time. (Unless of course your enemy knows how to use ESG effectively (not as powerful as Thor's Hammer but can very nicely deal out some damage to any types of units when done right) and/or you have given your enemy enough time (AKA not a huge amount more than it takes to research Thor's Hammer and prepare an expensive army using it) to prepare a lot of ports/missiles (and ore to run them (and due to the insane returns you get from EMP missile spam, putting ore towards it should be high priority anyway)) - then it becomes impossibly more tricky)

Fixed that for you.

And I've seen many games (particularly team games) that degenerated into "Plymouth players spam missiles, Eden players can only sit in their base and build MDs (which suck up a lot of power and colonists, which slows down research and vehicle production immensely unless it's gotten late enough into the game where you have plenty population) and can't go out to attack because their units will just get missiled over and over and eventually picked off, and therefore the game is totally stalemated, unless (pre-1.3.5) Plymouth players abused the MD bug to guarantee successful missile strikes against Eden, or (also pre-1.3.5) the unit cap prevents building adequate defense for Eden to turtle well, and/or (any version now) the terrain doesn't favor turtling well, OR it is a team game and the Eden player has a Plymouth teammate that somehow manages to out-missile spam the enemy, which often takes a very very long time", so don't make EMP missile spam sound harder to get up and running than it is.

OR Eden can MD creep up to the Plymouth base and win that way!!!!!!!!111one one one. (Don't even try that, except perhaps on La Corrida; it typically doesn't work (mostly because you'd have to defend your huge MD line as well as your base, which you probably aren't gonna be able to do due to ore and the unit cap, and you'll need loads of colonists, much more than you'll have except late in the game, and build a bunch of power plants), it's just plain impractical. I have successfully done this on La Corrida vs. one opponent, since the size and design of the map happens to negate the major problems with the tactic, although it was still a pain and I had to idle most of my VFs and it stopped my research progress dead in its tracks for a good while due to the workers needed to run the MDs; I've tried it on Pie Chart as well and it didn't work, even though that's also a small map with many chokepoints and seperated player bases etc.)

The only other thing you can try is EMPing your own army just before the missile hits (basically an exploit of a game mechanic: if a vehicle is already EMP'ed, it can't get re-EMP'ed, even if the original EMP didn't have the same total duration as the would-be "new" EMP). You have to do it fast. You have to select every individual EMP unit and EMP a vehicle not already being EMP'ed by another unit; again, this must be done very fast; you don't have a big window of time before the missile hits, and if you do it too early, the vehicles will come out of EMP (the duration of which is shorter because friendly-fire EMP doesn't last as long as regular EMP and not nearly as long as missile EMP) before the missile hits. You'll need highly refined micro skills to pull it off, and it should be mentioned that micro is much more difficult in OP2 than in other RTSes because OP2 doesn't "automate" a lot of things that other RTSes typically do. You're also gonna need very quick and sharp eyes to immediately tell your EMP units apart from your other units since they look very similar due to the sharing of chassis.

[Sirbomber]

Not to mention that Plymouth has more (and better) units that don't require rare ore compared to Eden, allowing them to easily camp on all the rare ore spots.

Seriously Highlander, you sure you're playing OP2?  Because from the way you're talking it sounds like you have no idea how the game really works.

[Spikerocks101]

So, your saying, to make it more balance, give MD's less power requirements (maybe half or less), and larger range, aswell as give EMP Missiles less range and effect time?

[evecolonycamander]

hey Eden has a huge advantage once all research is done... i have yet to see a player lose once they have finished getting a good sized army up and running. even if Plymouth spams the hell out of EMP missiles Eden is safe if the player is constantly moving units around. the only disadvantage Eden has is  it requires a lot of micro-management and ore

[CK9]

eve, that's because you havne't seen an effective use of chokepoints.  I've stated this several times, and I'll continue to do so because I'm damn proud of it: I've annihilated a strong EMP/Thor Tiger mix of 32 units with just 16 RPG tigers on La Corr because I was fortunate with the choke point.  Get someone who actually knows what they're doing, and they're going to be able to push out towards the enemy base by forcing the opponent to be on the bad side of a choke point.

[Arklon]

So, your saying, to make it more balance, give MD's less power requirements (maybe half or less), and larger range, aswell as give EMP Missiles less range and effect time?

No, that's what you're saying. I was pointing out how things are as it is right now, not how they should be.

[Highlander]

Not to mention that Plymouth has more (and better) units that don't require rare ore compared to Eden, allowing them to easily camp on all the rare ore spots.

Seriously Highlander, you sure you're playing OP2?  Because from the way you're talking it sounds like you have no idea how the game really works.

Yes Sirbomber, Plymouth gets Sticky, which is 1 more weapon than Eden gets.

Personally I find Sticky best as a measure to hold chokepoints or slow down advancement of an enemy. I much prefer EMP when it comes to fighting, though indeed Sticky can have it's special uses.

As for the other weapons, we can disregard EMP and Flare's since they are the same for both factions.

Laser vs Mic (Both upgraded): Mic's will win have an advantage, but if you upgrade armor on lynx's Mic's will have a smaller advantage. Thus having a few extra lasers in your army might tip the battle in your favor.

Rail vs RPG (Both upgraded): Is just about an even match strength wise. RPG has the advantage because it does not require a direct line of sight.

And where does the "easy camping on rare ore" come from ? (Apart from Rock Garden) Most maps has rare inside the base area or in the immediate vicinity. On the maps where this does not occur you can either attack the "camping units" or you can strike at his base, since he should have less units in his base since he has split his forces.




Arklon, if we are gonna take player skill levels into the consideration here, wouldn't it be natural to assume that the Eden player knows how to avoid the ESG ? Not just assume that the Plymouth player is the only one who knows how to move units around ?

Secondly, if we are comparing weapons - wouldn't it be more natural to compare Acid vs ESG, rather than Thor vs ESG ?
Acid's have virtually the same cost as ESG and "same" weapon effect. While ESG has 1 tile longer range, Acid's can damage buildings as well. But, perhaps most importantly - Acid's is about twice as strong as ESG.

[evecolonycamander]

i would like to see a small list in order of the most powerful to the least. both before and after all research

[TH300]

i would like to see a small list in order of the most powerful to the least. both before and after all research

If you want numbers, just read the sheets.vol (particularly concussion and penetration damage columns plus reload time). But its really not so simple. How powerful a weapon is depends on your capabilities of using it.

[Sirbomber]

And where does the "easy camping on rare ore" come from ?

Maybe from your own suggestion to make more maps where you don't have easy access to rare ore?

Also, Rail Gun is crap.  The "extra" damage it deals as compared to the RPG is so minuscule that it won't matter in a big fire fight (100 concussion/50 penetration for Rail Gun vs 100 concussion/45 penetration for RPG), and even after its rate-of-fire upgrade the Rail Gun is too slow (65 for Rail Gun, 55 for RPG).

And you say Laser is only "slightly" disadvantaged compared to Microwave?  Let's look at that too.  Upgraded, Laser deals 45 penetration damage.  Microwave deals 30 concussion damage + 30 penetration damage making it much more useful against armored targets.  After the upgrade (which it doesn't get until the end of the game, mind you) Laser's rate-of-fire is 22; Microwave's is 20.

We can look at ESG too if you want?  Acid Cloud damages buildings.  Great.  ESG deals massive damage to enemy vehicles (even Tigers) and is easily spammed at chokepoints.  Acid isn't nearly as effective at that.  ESG's damage is instantaneous.  Acid can be dodged.

Assuming these are 1-to-1 fights (which they won't be of course since Plymouth stuff is cheaper and more easily spammed), Thor's Hammer is that only weapon Eden has that isn't outclassed by its Plymouth counterpart.  It's the only thing that gives Eden any fighting edge.  It also requires a boatload of rare ore, something Plymouth only needs to worry about for ESG and Supernova (which is useless in a firefight anyways).  So if a Plymouth player isn't using any of their rare ore because none of their best units need it, what should they do with it?  Why, spam EMP Missiles of course!  So now Plymouth gets to pour 90% of their rare ore into EMP Missiles (assuming they're building some ESG) and now Eden has to split their rare between Thor's, Acid, Observatories, and Meteor Defenses.  This is assuming Eden can even get rare ore, because apparently you think we should make it harder impossible for Eden to ever get any decent rare.

But no, please.  I love it when people tell me OP2 is balanced, or that "Plymouth excels at the start while Eden excels at the end" so I can't wait to hear more about how little you understand this game Eden's hidden strengths.

[Highlander]

Also, Rail Gun is crap.  The "extra" damage it deals as compared to the RPG is so minuscule that it won't matter in a big fire fight (100 concussion/50 penetration for Rail Gun vs 100 concussion/45 penetration for RPG), and even after its rate-of-fire upgrade the Rail Gun is too slow (65 for Rail Gun, 55 for RPG).

So basically we agree that Rail is more or less equal to RPG like I said in my previous post ?  (Except of course for the line of fire limit on Rail)

And you say Laser is only "slightly" disadvantaged compared to Microwave? Let's look at that too. Upgraded, Laser deals 45 penetration damage. Microwave deals 30 concussion damage + 30 penetration damage making it much more useful against armored targets. After the upgrade (which it doesn't get until the end of the game, mind you) Laser's rate-of-fire is 22; Microwave's is 20.

It's hardly a end game tech, if you play as Eden against Plymouth, Armor upg and Fire Upg is the things you focus on if you cannot immediately get your hands on rare.

We can look at ESG too if you want? Acid Cloud damages buildings. Great. ESG deals massive damage to enemy vehicles (even Tigers) and is easily spammed at chokepoints. Acid isn't nearly as effective at that. ESG's damage is instantaneous. Acid can be dodged.

Acid does more damage/fires faster than ESG (Since you like numbers, you can look up which is correct), making Acid nearly twice as powerful as ESG.
Acids can just as easily be spammed at chokepoints - thus this is a mute arguement.
The cloud of Acid can be driven out of - yes, but the vehicle still sustains some damage. Overall, both ESG and Acid will either hit or not, depending on micromanaging of units and whether or not opponent pays attention. This sort of action is however rarely decisive and usually just forces the player to move his vecs around. If you drive two armies into each other, Acid will win over an equal amount of ESG.
Also, since you seem to ignore Acid's ability to damage buildings, consider this:
- Acids can destroy a line of Plymouth GP's without taking much damage. ESG must either wade through and take considerable beating, or the army must wait or go around. (Or be reinforced with other weapons)
- An army of Acids can act as both a suppressor and  throw a punch against a base. ESG can only suppress enemy vehicles.

Assuming these are 1-to-1 fights (which they won't be of course since Plymouth stuff is cheaper and more easily spammed),

Not entirely true. At lynx level, prices are much the same for non-rare units, offering Plymouth something of an advantage true - but it is not so overpowering.
At Tiger level, you can build 5 ESG tigers for every 4 Acid tigers. - Assuming Rare or is the limiting factor.
Perhaps some minor tweaking of costs could make Eden more competitive early on.

Thor's Hammer is that only weapon Eden has that isn't outclassed by its Plymouth counterpart. It's the only thing that gives Eden any fighting edge.

Wrong. Acid Cloud is Eden's strongest card. Thor is nice if you want to get rid of walls or destroy buildings quickly, but Acid is better against other vehicles.