Author Topic: Spiders + Emp  (Read 4029 times)

Offline EnderA

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« on: October 31, 2008, 04:22:38 PM »
I recently picked up Outpost 2 again, and it has been fun (and intense) to re-experience the campaigns. Even 11 years later, the game has decent graphics and fantastic gameplay. I find myself feeling like I'm actually fighting for the survival of the human race.

One thing I noticed as Plymouth is that often when I disable a vehicle with EMP and then set a spider (or a group of spiders) to reprogram it, it won't succeed, even if a group of 4 spiders started reprogramming immediately after the vehicle is hit. Am I missing some underlying mechanic that changes the chances of a successful re-programming? What determines whether or not it's successful, and what are the probabilities?
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Offline Hooman

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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2008, 04:37:43 PM »
I think it's just timing. The spider usually has to be pretty much right next to the unit when it is first EMPed to have enough time to reprogram it.
 

Offline EnderA

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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2008, 04:43:10 PM »
I've had times where I literally had the vehicle surrounded with spiders and EMP vehicles and it took 5 times before I finally captured it
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Offline Hooman

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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2008, 04:45:11 PM »
They weren't bumping each other out of the way or anything were they? You need one to just sit and work. It doesn't matter how many you have really, as long as one gets to work uninterrupted for long enough.
 

Offline EnderA

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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2008, 04:52:32 PM »
Nah, they didn't. (The AI avoids that.) I'm curious if, say, another spider joining the reprogramming resets the programming timer, although I've had times where all 4 or 5 spiders start programming at the same time (making one big "click click click" sound) immediately after an EMP, and it still fails. I can only presume it's not supposed to be a sure thing, and that at best additional spiders don't help.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 04:52:56 PM by EnderA »
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Offline Hooman

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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2008, 05:36:32 PM »
Hmm, perhaps I'll look into this then.
 

Offline Hidiot

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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2008, 02:06:36 AM »
Units have a variable "EMP-ed" time. I know I also had such problems. I do recommend using just one or two spiders for re-programming. And making sure you have enough EMP's around to re-disable the vehicle if the re-programming fails.

Oh,yes, I think the re-programing time also varies.
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Offline BlackBox

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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2008, 02:29:16 AM »
As far as I'm aware it's not chance based. You just have to have a spider there for the required time. (It helps if you just set a spider next to the unit to be reprogrammed, then disable it with EMP. The spider will automatically start reprogramming). I don't think I've ever been successful using the "reprogram" button (only by the above method) just because it has to happen so quick. About the only use I really see for the reprogram button is if the unit you are trying to reprogram has been EMPed for an extended time (EMP missile, or power plant explosion). Even then, you probably need to be pretty quick.

It might help to back off your other units (if you have other combat units, as they may attack the EMPed unit automatically) which could cause it to fail (they kill the unit before it gets reprogrammed).

Offline Hooman

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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2008, 07:12:46 PM »
Yeah, I don't think it's chance based either. I know the EMP time will vary, depending on if it's done by an ally or not. As in, there is a fixed time for enemy units, and it's half of that for friendly units. It could potentially vary depending on source, but I've never really checked into this.

The reprogram time looks like it varies depending on whether the player is human or not. I think it checked if the spider belonged to a human player, and if it does, the reprogram time was increased slightly. Again, it chooses one of two fixed times. I could be wrong about what unit was checked on that last one though.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 07:15:02 PM by Hooman »

Offline Highlander

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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2008, 04:03:17 AM »
Hooman, since EMP + Spiders are virtually useless in a MP game, can that extra time for a human player be avoided somehow ?

If reprogram time is decreased somewhat, spiders might actually be a worthwhile when playing against a human opponent.
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Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2008, 07:56:03 AM »
Yeah, because Eden isn't already disadvantaged enough!
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Offline Highlander

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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2008, 11:02:55 AM »
Heh, the only thing Plymouth got working for them offensively is the EMP Missile.

- Last time I've played Plymouth, people blocked me from the game or quit just for me getting a spaceport.

Things might have changed since then, I don't know, but if missiles are out of a game, Plymouth players will have to rush early game, or be destroyed in the end.


I really don't get you sometimes Sirbomber.. sometimes we seem to be talking about 2 different games or something.
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Offline EnderA

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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2008, 12:58:07 PM »
Highlander, from what I've gathered, Plymouth is considered overpowered compared to Eden, except in the long term (when Thor's pwn it up.) Plymouth's Microwave weapon does more damage than the lasers, and has an early cooldown upgrade making them even better. Plymouth has Stickyfoam, for which Eden doesn't have a counterpart. Plymouth also has a slight morale advantage. Hence Plymouth doesn't need Spiders/EMP to be buffed (and yea, very late game Plymouth can negate the Thor's with mass EMP missiles + spiders.)
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Offline Highlander

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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2008, 02:22:30 PM »
Quote
Highlander, from what I've gathered, Plymouth is considered overpowered compared to Eden, except in the long term (when Thor's pwn it up.) Plymouth's Microwave weapon does more damage than the lasers, and has an early cooldown upgrade making them even better. Plymouth has Stickyfoam, for which Eden doesn't have a counterpart. Plymouth also has a slight morale advantage. Hence Plymouth doesn't need Spiders/EMP to be buffed (and yea, very late game Plymouth can negate the Thor's with mass EMP missiles + spiders.)
EnderA;

Yes, your right about the early game. The extra damage microwave does is minimal, though the early fire upgrade is lethal. Combined with Sticky Foam being range these two factors make Plymouth a sure win in a early game unless there is a certain skill level difference.

The Morale Advantage is a mute point though, because:

1) Most MP games are played with Morale Steady (Set to 75)
2) Eden can achieve way better morale than Plymouth by use of Consumer Factory. (Which in fact makes Eden ALOT better in Morale dependant games)



Now, I might be mistaken in my next observation but nevertheless, you haven't played Multiplayer much have you ? - Nothing against you, but to summarize a few thing up:

Earlier it has been an issue with Spamming of EMP Missiles. (Mass producing Missiles on 4+ ports and carpet bombing an area) Personally, I don't think of Missile Spamming as a problem, a nuisance sure, but nothing you can't overcome. (At least this is my experience when playing 1 vs 1 against another player missile spamming me)
However, due to a few big discussions on these boards, Missiles has been more or less banned from the game. At least that has been my experience with it lately.
So as a result: Spiders are currently more or less obsolete if players of same skill have a go at each other. Earlier you could always shoot 3-5 missiles at someones army, keep them EMP'd and that way capture most of their army. Nowadays, you'll be lucky to get 1/3 captured. (If it wasn't for the newly introduced unit limit upgrade, spiders would also severely shorten your amount of combat vecs)

So, while Spiders are fun in single player and against a player far below you in skill level, they never really had a place in Multiplayer. (At least if Missiles are banned or limited in useage)


The main problem of late game Plymouth, is NOT Thors Hammer. Sure, TH is a nice weapon with a great range, but it only damages 1 vehicle at a time and costs a lot to build.
- The true strength of Eden lies with Acid Clouds. AC is in many aspects the same as ESG, but it fire's faster, does more damage and does damage to buildings as well.
So in a large battle, AC would make short business of a TH army of same size/power, not to mention an army of ESG or RPG's.

Without missiles, it's just a matter of time before the Plymouth player has to throw in the towel. (Still talking late game here)


If missiles are enabled they can be used strategically to form possibilites for the Plymouth player to use, but Plymouth are still not up to match the pure firepower of Eden. But at least the Plymouth player has a chance if he knows how and when to aim his missiles.

However as far as I'm concerned, Missiles can pretty much be taken out of the equation by the right use of Meteor Defenses. (Assuming people don't use the bug with MD's. Bugs are after all bugs and shouldn't be exploited)(And yes, I know some people disagree with my last statement) So with Missiles out of the way, the same power balance returns: Eden > Plymouth in long games
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 02:23:07 PM by Highlander »
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Offline Hooman

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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2008, 09:31:17 PM »
Remember that Plymouth vs. Plymouth players can't use Meteor Defenses. I suppose they can still use scorpions, spiders, and try to spam their own EMP missiles, but scorpions sucks, and spiders are useless on their own, and you'd pretty much have to be the first with a spaceport up.


---- Technical jargon ----
Remember that the MD bug has been patched in the 1.3.5 Beta 2 package.

With that version, missiles that are in range will always be shot at. The success rate is 50% before upgrading the targetting, and 75% afterwards. (If Rand(100) < successRate Then successfulHit).

The range is 20 tiles. Although, the range is calculated at the time the MD fires, and it will fire at some point during an 8 tick cycle. So it appears the range is still slightly affected by the timing issue that previously prevented it from firing. In other words you might not get a full 20 tile range of coverage depending on when the missile was fired. (If distanceApproximation <= 20 Then fire).


Edit: Fixed probability nonsense.

Edit: The code could probably be patched fairly easily to avoid the extra time for human players to reprogram units. I'm not sure this would be a popular patch though.
---- End Technical jargon ----
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 11:43:59 PM by Hooman »

Offline EnderA

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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2008, 01:43:17 PM »
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Now, I might be mistaken in my next observation but nevertheless, you haven't played Multiplayer much have you ?
Very true, no offense taken. Last time I played multiplayer on Outpost 2 was back in the WON days. I wasn't speaking based on experience, just summarizing what I had gathered from other posts here.

I'm surprised (experienced) people play with morale on steady, since it takes out a huge element of the game. I remember playing with morale on steady back in the day, but that was just because I was a newb and didn't want to mess with it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:43:46 PM by EnderA »
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Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2008, 02:04:52 PM »
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The main problem of late game Plymouth, is NOT Thors Hammer. Sure, TH is a nice weapon with a great range, but it only damages 1 vehicle at a time and costs a lot to build.
- The true strength of Eden lies with Acid Clouds. AC is in many aspects the same as ESG, but it fire's faster, does more damage and does damage to buildings as well.
So in a large battle, AC would make short business of a TH army of same size/power, not to mention an army of ESG or RPG's.
Are you even playing the same game, Highlander?  Acid is nowhere near as powerful as ESG and, unlike ESG, damages your own units.

So:
Microwave is more powerful than Laser.
Foam is more powerful than... Oh, right, Eden doesn't have anything to stop Foam!
RPG is more powerful than Rail Gun.
ESG is more powerful than Acid.
EMP Missiles own [insert Eden unit here] (not to mention the EMP Missile effect lasts at least twice as long as regular EMP, making spamming Missiles and Spiders a very good idea).

And don't forget:

Microwave is upgraded much sooner than Laser.
RPG gets a damage upgrade and can fire over Concrete Walls.
Units can get away from Acid by driving out of the cloud; attempting to do so with ESG only damages you more (so if you run away you die, and if you stay you get owned by other units).
Eden is doomed without rare ore.  Plymouth can spam RPG and do extremely well.
And let's not get into missiles again...

The point is, stop making life harder for us Edenites.
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Offline CK9

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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2008, 02:18:06 PM »
I don't get why people keep saying spiders aren't worthwhile in multiplayer.  I remember back on WON playing several games where I was able to capture a significant number of enemy vehicles using any of a number of tactics to trick them into getting emp'd long enough (example: launch a missle.  Some players will emp themselves to avoid the longer disabled time, and if you have spiders close enough, you can start taking them :) )
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Offline EnderA

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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2008, 05:54:02 PM »
Back in WON, my army of tigers would usually consist of 1/2 EMP'ers, 1/6 AOE'ers (ESG/Acid), and 1/3 DPS (Thor/RPG). Disabling the enemy vehicles was priority #1, it's a huge tactical advantage since one EMP tiger can keep 2 vehicles disabled. If I was Plymouth, obviously a bunch of spiders in the mix, and I loved it when I could mass Missiles and Spiders and capture the entire enemy army.

I'm going to have to agree with Highlander that Acid is better than ESG, though. It does much better DPS. Of course, Acid would be retarded for Plymouth since they would annihilate their own spiders.

Does Thor do splash? I know it lights up the nearby units.

Back on topic, though, I think I figured out what was going wrong. I think when a new spider starts trying to capture the same unit as another spider, it resets the timer on the capture attempt.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 05:59:49 PM by EnderA »
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Offline Hooman

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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2008, 07:40:48 PM »
I think all the weapons might do some degree of splash damage. It seems to depend on how accurate the shot was on what gets damaged.

I know you can adjust some internal values for the laser so one shot can level an entire base. That at least means there's the potential for splash damage from this weapon, and it's probably one of the least likely to do splash damage. Actually, you might make the claim that ESG is the only one that doesn't do splash damage if you consider each affected tile independently.


At any rate, Thor's Hammer definately does do some splash damage. It doesn't have all that large of a radius, but you can usually expect surrounding units to take at least a little bit of damage.
 

Offline Sirbomber

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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2008, 06:53:08 AM »
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I know you can adjust some internal values for the laser so one shot can level an entire base.
Care to share those values with us? :evil laugh:
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Offline Hooman

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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2008, 02:52:56 PM »
<_<

You know, I'm pretty sure you already found them. I remember someone talking about the same sort of thing that I did.
 

Offline CK9

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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2008, 05:49:33 PM »
lol.

Scorpians, lasers, and microwaves have never shown significant splash damage.  Once blast from a thor can damage 3 units if it lands in the area of the shared corner
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