Cctoide's rant

[Cctoide]

So at the moment it's the 25th of March. 2005. As I start to write this I have to go away in a half-hour, and it's 36 minutes past midday.

Let's start from the beginning. I hadn't been following OPU, not on the IRC channel nor on the forum, mainly because the channel was being pestered by newbies all the time and the moderation was getting stricter everytime. To be honest, I should have said that when it started happening. The community began fragmenting ever since Lev and hacker were instituted as admins. The channel began to have a 2-to-1 op-to-regular user ratio, and that couldn't be good. Basically everyone on the programming team was an op regardless of whether they knew how to do it or not.

So, hacker and levi had been planning this for some time. They tell me xfir didn't let them do anything without asking them. I was thinking about this last night before going to bed and... If I had a board, would I let them? Then it struck me, I'd probably only op people I REALLY trusted, and tell them to use their best judgement.

Now, if xfir really did what I think he did to them, and there is reason to believe so, then strike one for the other team, since noone under too many rules will follow them for long. But - and beginning now this gets hazy as I wasn't here at the time - who originally started the community? Xfir, of course ... and how was it then? Small. When was the other side opped? I don't know. But they haven't done much besides lock and move topics. The correct word for that would be moderator, not admin.

Now the question is: did the changes they want were needed? Many people now might be on either side because they're misinformed; their best judgement might give them another opinion. Note that I'm trying to be as neutral as possible. What was done to xfir was wrong. And was done the wrong way.

Now a number of questions have to be made, and I'd like both sides to answer without flaming; Xfir: Why couldn't anyone do anything without your permission? If you thought OP2 was dying, why didn't you voluntarily hand over control of OPU?

And for the other team: What were your motivations? The people cannot base their opinions on estimates. Did it really happen? I would like to see an admin log. Unedited. From the source. Why did you do it? Were you intending to tell Xfir?

Strike one for the xfir team.

Most people who went to either side did that because they were acquainted by the leader. And I'll admit that. I was pushed to Levi and hacker's side at the beginning since they took over the IRC channel. At the beginning when I saw what had happened I felt like sending some expletives at their faces. But then realised that wouldn't help at all.

I'll admit, too, that Levi and hacker have a considerable vantage over others; they have the DB.

There was talk that hacker or levi had truncated the DB after having copied it. I don't know if this is real, but if it is, it conflicts with hacker's claim that they did nothing to stop xfir from reviving op.xfir.net.

Now comes the time to assign blames. But can we really? I mean, people who were influenced at the beginning by xfir, say, will continue on his side. Same for the other side. Xfir is a good person, but even good people go bad at time, which may or may not have happened with him. Same thing goes for levi and hacker.

Last night I also thought about a different solution. Since everyone seems to be nagged at one person or the other, the best solution right about now seems to be creating a new board, totally neutral from outside influences. I wouldn't mind from creating such a board.

At the moment I'm not sure. What I know is that over the next weeks the community will just fragment eachother, both on levi and hacker's side and on xfir's side too. This will be because on lev-hacker's side there were left quite a few programmers.

But what was done by them, the programmers; was it right? Did we need a new OP3? I think so, because no game can be revived for too long; you can only go so far, and move on. With this I'll have to agree on xfir.

This also means the effort should have been concentrated on one OP3 for the future.

It's now 10 minutes to 13h. I spent 20 minutes writing this, which is something that, I hope, won't hurt anyone.

This is because, I stand neutral.

Peace.

Cc

[Leviathan]

A new board is a very bad idea in my opion. (Anyway there is Eze's board which you can post on) The community needs to stay in one place, centrilized around one forum and one website. Spliting up is the worse thing which can happen, the community is here for everyone like it was before the move. So please stay with us.
We want to make it better, help us to. Leaving does quite this oposit.

[Eddy-B]

Okay - first of, i want to react to Cctoide's reference to "the programmers". As i am basicly one of them, i want to expressly state that i am neutral in this matter, and that i did not know there was a problem until the very moment i found out the forum was gone, and noticed xfir deopped himself and left the channel.

Now, for splitting of the outpost-group that we have formed, i think it has happened already over time. I've noticed a LOT of lurkers on the forum site - reading and some of them posting, but they hardly show up at all on chat. I myself was first active in the forum only, and lately it's the other way around. It doesn't mean i'm taking sides.

About the IRC ops: i know i've been opped in #coding - but i do not abuse that position. I don't even know why i have ops in #lobby...


Thank you for taking the time to write all this down, and i hope you won't leave us

[PlayingOutpost0-24]

So at the moment it's the 25th of March. 2005. As I start to write this I have to go away in a half-hour, and it's 36 minutes past midday.

Let's start from the beginning. I hadn't been following OPU, not on the IRC channel nor on the forum, mainly because the channel was being pestered by newbies all the time and the moderation was getting stricter everytime. To be honest, I should have said that when it started happening. The community began fragmenting ever since Lev and hacker were instituted as admins. The channel began to have a 2-to-1 op-to-regular user ratio, and that couldn't be good. Basically everyone on the programming team was an op regardless of whether they knew how to do it or not.

So, hacker and levi had been planning this for some time. They tell me xfir didn't let them do anything without asking them. I was thinking about this last night before going to bed and... If I had a board, would I let them? Then it struck me, I'd probably only op people I REALLY trusted, and tell them to use their best judgement.

Now, if xfir really did what I think he did to them, and there is reason to believe so, then strike one for the other team, since noone under too many rules will follow them for long. But - and beginning now this gets hazy as I wasn't here at the time - who originally started the community? Xfir, of course ... and how was it then? Small. When was the other side opped? I don't know. But they haven't done much besides lock and move topics. The correct word for that would be moderator, not admin.

Now the question is: did the changes they want were needed? Many people now might be on either side because they're misinformed; their best judgement might give them another opinion. Note that I'm trying to be as neutral as possible. What was done to xfir was wrong. And was done the wrong way.

Now a number of questions have to be made, and I'd like both sides to answer without flaming; Xfir: Why couldn't anyone do anything without your permission? If you thought OP2 was dying, why didn't you voluntarily hand over control of OPU?

And for the other team: What were your motivations? The people cannot base their opinions on estimates. Did it really happen? I would like to see an admin log. Unedited. From the source. Why did you do it? Were you intending to tell Xfir?

Strike one for the xfir team.

Most people who went to either side did that because they were acquainted by the leader. And I'll admit that. I was pushed to Levi and hacker's side at the beginning since they took over the IRC channel. At the beginning when I saw what had happened I felt like sending some expletives at their faces. But then realised that wouldn't help at all.

I'll admit, too, that Levi and hacker have a considerable vantage over others; they have the DB.

There was talk that hacker or levi had truncated the DB after having copied it. I don't know if this is real, but if it is, it conflicts with hacker's claim that they did nothing to stop xfir from reviving op.xfir.net.

Now comes the time to assign blames. But can we really? I mean, people who were influenced at the beginning by xfir, say, will continue on his side. Same for the other side. Xfir is a good person, but even good people go bad at time, which may or may not have happened with him. Same thing goes for levi and hacker.

Last night I also thought about a different solution. Since everyone seems to be nagged at one person or the other, the best solution right about now seems to be creating a new board, totally neutral from outside influences. I wouldn't mind from creating such a board.

At the moment I'm not sure. What I know is that over the next weeks the community will just fragment eachother, both on levi and hacker's side and on xfir's side too. This will be because on lev-hacker's side there were left quite a few programmers.

But what was done by them, the programmers; was it right? Did we need a new OP3? I think so, because no game can be revived for too long; you can only go so far, and move on. With this I'll have to agree on xfir.

This also means the effort should have been concentrated on one OP3 for the future.

It's now 10 minutes to 13h. I spent 20 minutes writing this, which is something that, I hope, won't hurt anyone.

This is because, I stand neutral.

Peace.

Cc

Being neutral means being on either sides

A new board is a very bad idea in my opion. (Anyway there is Eze's board which you can post on) The community needs to stay in one place, centrilized around one forum and one website. Spliting up is the worse thing which can happen, the community is here for everyone like it was before the move. So please stay with us.
We want to make it better, help us to. Leaving does quite this oposit.

Wanna make it better? Well no comment. I agree fully Cc we need a new forums. Not so strict and new admins. No conflict then. People would stay.
And Levi, we are already splitting. Don't ask why, it's obvious.

[Leviathan]

Haha. What is strict about these forums? Nothing at all, infact they will be lest strick when just xfir was in control. As im sure you know by now, he didnt let us add forum sections he did not want. It shouldnt be up to him or any one person, it should be up to everyone. You have complete freedom on these forums as it should be.

Why are you spliting? We should all stay in once place, we are not a very big community and being apart does not help us.

[BlackBox]

What was happening is he was making decisions (or not making needed decisions) for the community which he had no business making, or should have at least asked people before he did/didn't do them.

Quote from a post he made on the OPC:

Isn't it great when the one you trust breaks that trust just because you thought that the community didn't need the changes he suggested?

Well, he had no right to "think whether the community didn't need the changes" simply because he didn't participate, and half the time just said "OP2 is dying" or something to that effect. Nothing that actually built up the community.

He wasn't really a community leader until he opened forums up for people to use. Whoop dee doo. He never was really involved, he just was "there".

In essence we had to do what we did so we could make changes that the community needed, ones that would be helpful to the community.

And you have never heard me or lev say "op2 is dying" now have you?

[Leviathan]

What was happening is he was making decisions (or not making needed decisions) for the community which he had no business making, or should have at least asked people before he did/didn't do them.

The main reason xfir did things were his own reasons.

And I know people will say to this you should of asked us first before we moved the forums, but I dont know anyway that we could of. Were sorry for this, it was a shock and it must seam like a sudden move to most.

[PlayingOutpost0-24]

Okay now I knew this will happen. I knew you are gonna blame xfir. But know this - only the one-third part of it is xfir's thing. You guys did the rest.
Exactly what were those changes you asked? (note: EXACTLY, don't lie I'll ask X too)

[CK9]

heh, am I the only one that sees the humor in this, or have all the other older members forgotten?  CC's approach is almost exactally the opposite of the one betaray used on op.suddenlaunch

anyway, as to the actual topic, until the next really big issue, this one will not die down unless some people realize that all we can do is learn from the past.

[PlayingOutpost0-24]

What was happening is he was making decisions (or not making needed decisions) for the community which he had no business making, or should have at least asked people before he did/didn't do them.

Quote from a post he made on the OPC:

Isn't it great when the one you trust breaks that trust just because you thought that the community didn't need the changes he suggested?

Well, he had no right to "think whether the community didn't need the changes" simply because he didn't participate, and half the time just said "OP2 is dying" or something to that effect. Nothing that actually built up the community.

He wasn't really a community leader until he opened forums up for people to use. Whoop dee doo. He never was really involved, he just was "there".

In essence we had to do what we did so we could make changes that the community needed, ones that would be helpful to the community.

And you have never heard me or lev say "op2 is dying" now have you?

Now let's see.
1. Either they are afraid or lazy (or both) to post the changes they wanted. Guess it was power-hungryness
2. How do you know the community wanted them. Why didn't you ask 40 people and tell them to tell it also to xfir? Except if you two are the community and we are pests watching it fall?

Oh and compared to Warcraft or Unreal Tournament or No one lives forever, Outpost 2 is dead. It's not his fault that he's right.
Dead in gaming world is EXTREMELY LOW player count.

[BlackBox]

Give it up PlayingOP. Of course OP2 is "dead" in comparison to those games.

Part of it was lack of promotion on the company's part. If a decent userbase was established in the first place there'd be a lot more people playing it.
Also it lacked things that extend the life of the game. for example, new maps, mods, etc. These are all things we've had to figure out ourselves. and we move a lot slower because we don't have as many people working on stuff like this.

Op2 is still growing however. If you come to IRC regularly you can see the trend for yourself.

However, if you're really not interested in OP2, as it seems you aren't, then I mince no words: leave! go do something else. If you really don't want to be a part of OP2, then you don't have to, as we're not making you stay. It's up to you and you only whether you're interested or not.

[Drakmar]

Why do you keep saying that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't like OP2. If he didn't like it, he wouldn't come here. DROP IT!!!

[PlayingOutpost0-24]

I can still be on your side if you tell me what changes were you asking from xfir "for the good of the community".
Oh and... just FYI, on my first day when I don't have to go to work I *will* go up and play OP2. Oh didn't I say I got the job in full-time? 3x the payment I got in part-time.

[zhukant]

Wow! That's awesome! What do you do?

Ok, in reply to Levi's don't break up thing, I totally agree, but I also think that by splitting from xfir's forum, we kind of broke up already.

What was done is done. The conflict isn't going to be solved by people trying to prove that the split was right or wrong. I have gathered enough info to speculate that xfir and Levi are not enemies of any sort, and that for them this isn't a topic that should bring up so much enmity.

Please - we need to concentrate on other things.

But first tell me, all ye who dislike the change. What do you want to be done? It feels like you are only saying why the split was wrong. What is the point of that? Instead of grumbling, you need to make suggestions.

I thrice beg your forgiveness if I angered anyone, or repeated anything previously said by others in this post.