Author Topic: Empires of Eradia: The Cataclysm of Chaos - Alpha V19  (Read 9234 times)

Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #100 on: August 04, 2018, 11:43:55 PM »
For me, I haven't been able to build it on Linux. I never figured out how to get libtcod working. Hence I haven't had a chance to play it. Sometimes though I'll be curious about development and download the package to look at the code.

With the previous game, it was playable on the web, which made it much easier to test out. No download or installation required.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2018, 12:33:28 AM »
Here is the page I used to get libtcod working for my main rig. Might help you out:

http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Complete_Roguelike_Tutorial,_using_python%2Blibtcod,_part_1

EDIT: I think I know why python won't work on the laptop. The last time I did any major updates, was in mid-2014. The universal C runtime (CRT) came out in 2015, so my computer doesn't actually have the necessary runtime installed, hence why the error of not finding it. Now... to get the CRT for my laptop and see if it solves the problem.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 01:02:35 AM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2018, 02:24:51 AM »
Ahh, ok, that link helped. Nice clear instructions for compiling libtcod on Linux. It was a slight variant of the usual compile procedure. I noticed there was no install rule set for the Makefile, so the process felt a bit clunky, manually copying files around, but I got the game to run.

My first thought was indeed the font was way too small. That made it rather hard to read.

My next thought was, I had no idea what keys did what, or how to find out.

Looking forward to the font updates.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #103 on: August 05, 2018, 10:54:49 AM »
There is two ways to find out the keys. Read the Readme file that comes with the executable. Or hit Shift + / (the ? key). At the end of the story popup, at the start of the game, it states to hit Shift + / to see the keybindings and then directs you to the tutorial.

I suppose if the font was too small, you'd probably have missed that. Anyway in other news...

Windows Update is being a real ass. To get the Universal C Runtime, I need to get it from WIndows Update... it downloaded, and installed 70 updates; when it went to configure them, only 6 were successful. There is a standalone installer for the CRT, but, it just hangs/freezes/locks up/is a piece of shit for over 10 minutes and does nothing. So I'm stuck with Windows Updates. Maybe if I install them in incremental steps, they will work. Probably not though.

This is a problem because my main rig is still down, and my brother in law who is good with computers, is thinking it is a motherboard failure, but is still trying things out. If I can't get the CRT on this 2011 Win7 laptop, I cannot compile my code or even run my own binaries, making development impossible.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 10:56:38 AM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #104 on: August 05, 2018, 11:30:14 AM »
I managed to compile and run it from Linux. You can develop in a Linux virtual machine!  ;) :D ;D

Or maybe you can switch to a secondary task, such as learning to use Git.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #105 on: August 05, 2018, 01:03:05 PM »
WINDOWS UPDATE = igjalkgnaoinalnan;reagn'jlkasdlgkja029090fm90am09remg9eugn9-7834n97bhufnugans9ha7dsbg7ahr9ahwe89ghae8gha0wh9gehw90ghw09hg09whe490gha42ihgoseifoashdf... expletive deletive.

I cannot install the universal CRT at all. I've tried to install updates 4 times now with Windows Update, and only 1 out of like 40 updates is successfully applied and then none get applied. There is a standalone installer, that appeared to install it, and then when I restarted it as requested, it failed to it apply it. And now, when I try to launch either Windows Update, or the standalone installer, it gets stuck in an infinite loop, and then after like 15 minutes, finally crashes.

It is impossible. I cannot continue development of my python game on this machine. Windows simply will not cooperate. I need the universal CRT in order to run or compile anything with Python in it.

Some users stated that you can get the universal CRT by just installing the VC_Redist 2015 package. I've tried that method 4 times now, either with just repairing the installation, or using Control Panel's remove program and then reinstalling the VC_Redist 2015 package. Nothing is working so I am ... adofhaofhoaisdhgoiahogihaoighaohfoiahogiahoighoigh209049au2094j09jg90sdjg09aj09gj092jga09d09ghaw09hw09ha0940w9hg09hw09h409hw09hgw09hg90hw9g0h09gh309hw09gh9w0hg ... Anyways.

If my brother in law can't find a problem with the computer that isn't the motherboard, and fix it, then I'm probably going to be unable to code for at least a month, if not longer. There is nothing I can do... even if I had the source files, I couldn't do anything with them, because Microsoft is a 190na9naugnsd98nga809dsg8a0gn08asd0gadgnjadgnoausdng098nasoogindngaiidsongidang0dnsagalgnasdlkalkkjlkwjlkanglksmlnsadlgknlkgnlkajglkajdglkjadslkdgjalkdgjl and can't create a serviceable Update system that works most of the time without screwing everything up. I effin hate Windows Update.

When I visit my brother in law next, I'll grab my source files off my computer, and likely have to order in a new motherboard. By the time I get the motherboard, I don't know if I'm going to have the desire to continue developing it, and maybe just move onto the next project. Effin Microsoft and their damn dependencies that refuse to install.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 01:05:24 PM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #106 on: August 06, 2018, 12:52:02 PM »
I hate technology. I got the main rig off my brother in law, and brought it home. It booted up, and got past Post, and then got stuck at a DHI Shell, and mentioned that no map could be found. Looked up online, and that meant that it could detect no HDD or SSDs. So I replugged in the SSDs and HDD... and it is now back to not posting and gets stuck on 67 again. I disconnected both HDD and SSD, and it is still stuck at 67. I'm at a loss, and I'm frustrated that the computer showed signs that it was still functional and is now back to the same old shit that I ran into 3 weeks ago.

It is possible there is a loose wire somewhere and that by removing the HDD and SSDs originally solved the issue, but by reconnecting the two, the issue has returned. However by disconnecting them again, it hasn't solved the issue nor has reattaching the wires to the mobo. I feel like smashing the computer with a sledgehammer, for giving me false hope.

Not sure how to proceed now.

EDIT:

I'm not sure what I did, but I successfully managed to get the universal c-runtime on my laptop working, and can launch my game now.

EDIT2:

Managed to get my uncompiled source files off my SSD. I'll upload a copy to the first post, and to my mediafire... in case this laptop ALSO fails.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 03:50:07 PM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #107 on: August 07, 2018, 12:58:17 AM »
Again, take a moment to learn Git. It will pay off huge over the years. And a basic tutorial shouldn't take very long to work through.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #108 on: August 07, 2018, 10:15:04 AM »
Alright, I'll take some time to look at Git.

I was wondering... when you say the font size is too small... I noticed on my laptop, that the font size was the same size as it was on desktop, albeit the screen was too large. Do you find the font size of the text on the forums to be too small? I ask, because the new font of 12x12 is the same size as the forum text now, and I find the text ingame to be much easier to read. The old font size was 10x10.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2018, 07:16:11 AM »
How am I supposed to compare? You haven't release the changes with the new font size yet  :P

Hmm, just noticed the "h" doesn't seem to render:
"w  e r e"
"P  y s i q u e"
Though I also noticed hitting a key caused a column of letters to disappear, which lined up with the missing "h"s.

I also found the spaces between letters made the text much harder to read.


I didn't notice any mention of a help key, nor was I able to activate a help menu.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2018, 10:25:34 AM »
The h not rendering and the column of letters are associated with a bug with the menu code. I had thought I had solved all instances of this bug, but apparently not. With the font change, I will be doing an UI overhaul, so I'll make sure to address the bug then.

Yes, I've noticed that as well with font size 10. Font size 12 doesn't appear to have the same issue... or if it does, it is much more marginal.

I double checked, and I did indeed mention the help menu and the tutorial, in Binary V11. It is at the end of the story window, after the all capitalized text. The first sentence mentions the help menu. The second, the tutorial. When I redo the story, as with the font size increase is now TOO big to fit in the new window size, I'll look into making it more obvious.

For reference: Help Menu (Shift + /) and Tutorial (Shift + '). These are also mentioned in the Readme file... though, people rarely readme files anymore so I'll forgive you for not reading the readme.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2018, 10:56:14 AM »
I had tried pressing Shift + /, as you mentioned in a previous post, but it didn't seem to do anything for me. Though I might have been stuck in a sub-menu without realizing it.

As for the in game instructions, I did skip reading the big block of text. It's just too small of a font to read comfortably. I'll take another look once the font size issue is dealt with.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2018, 11:32:02 AM »
Yes, when in a sub-menu it won't work. If you were able to move your character around the map, and then hit shift + /, then it would have opened the help menu.

Here is two screenshots, to give an indication of changes in font size.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #113 on: August 08, 2018, 02:33:23 PM »
That's much easier to read. The letters are large enough to be clear.

I still find the spaces between characters within words slows down my reading. I vaguely remember reading an article years ago that talked about a scientific study on how spacing affects reading, which suggested spaces within words makes it harder to read.

Not sure how attached you are to that spacing, or if it's part of the engine you're using. Looks like it's part of the engine.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #114 on: August 08, 2018, 05:20:49 PM »
As far as I can tell, it is a limitation with the libtcod library. You need to use, what I think is a sprite sheet, with all the various characters and symbols off a font file (included file is the font size 12 file). Why it has such large spaces in some words, and other times have like no spaces, I'm not entirely sure why that is.

I can definitely agree that having too many spaces in a word, artificially lengthens the word and makes it harder for me to read it quickly. Probably a perception related thing where the user expects the word to be longer, because it takes up more space that it usually does.

I'll fiddle with the UI, as it might be a problem created on my end. Maybe by giving a window too much excess space, it spreads out each character to fill that space more effectively. Or maybe legacy code from the tutorial creates the text issues. Or maybe it was fixed in a later version of libtcod library, and I'm just using an outdated version of libtcod.

Or maybe there is a text-formatting option in libtcod that isn't being used, which could be used to shrink the spacing of characters.

EDIT: I might be able to have Alpha V12's release out tomorrow. I am fighting with a few annoying interface bugs with the changes from font 10 to font 12, so I am not going to be able to promise a release. I've solved some of the interface issues, but not all of them, and many of them are extremely complex in nature, so it is slow, troublesome, and often times painful work to address these interface issues. And as the interface is key to gameplay, the game isn't really in a playable state at the present time.

EDIT2: I won't be able to release it today. However, I have made immense progress in getting the new character customization system to start working and I'm slowly but surely solving a whole bunch of interface related problems along the way. I hope to get this release out as soon as possible, but this all depends on how much more grief the interface will give me, between now and then.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 10:48:36 PM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2018, 09:59:08 PM »
I've progressed immensely with Alpha V12, and it is nearly ready for release. I'll be releasing Alpha V12, as both the uncompiled build and the binary build here on OPU, and I will be releasing it on the roguelike dev subreddit, to get feedback from there. I have a few story changes to make, which I'll address tomorrow. I've made sure that the game compiles (and it does) on this laptop and I've tested the binary built, and it works. So, I'll finish up the story changes and then release Alpha V12. I'll also give a brief explanation of why it took over a month to get Alpha V12 out, when I had been doing weekly builds.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
Link to OPU page = http://forum.outpost2.net/index.php/topic,6073.0.html

Offline leeor_net

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V11
« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2018, 11:29:53 PM »
As far as I can tell, it is a limitation with the libtcod library. You need to use, what I think is a sprite sheet, with all the various characters and symbols off a font file (included file is the font size 12 file). Why it has such large spaces in some words, and other times have like no spaces, I'm not entirely sure why that is.

It's called a 'glpyh set' or 'glyph table' and the issue is a problem caused by using a variable-spaced font (like Arial) in a scheme that requires a mono-spaced font (like Courier New). Basically, the library is expecting a monospaced font and so ignores any notion of 'kerning' which is how variable spaced fonts can adjust each character's distance from the other to produce legible words.

Use a monospaced font instead. It will eliminate the problem you're seeing. Not all monospaced fonts are serif'd. A good resource: https://www.1001fonts.com/monospaced-fonts.html
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 11:36:35 PM by leeor_net »
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2018, 10:12:48 AM »
Good to know, but it doesn't solve my problem. The link has downloads that uses the .ttf format; I need a glyph table that uses the .png format. Also the .ttf files do not have all the symbols I need, that are offered in the .png files...

EDIT: I looked up online what are some common monospaced fonts and then checked if I had any of those font pngs that came with libtcod. Apparently Consolas is a monospaced font and it has a png for it. I swapped it out with the Arial I had been using... it improves readability significantly... but... the spacing issue is still there. So, I'm thinking there is something else going on behind the scenes, with the libtcod library that is modifying the spaces as the monospace font didn't solve the issue. I'll likely keep the new font as it is easier for me to read everything but will have to keep searching to find out what the issue is with spacing.

EDIT2: Looks like it is an inherent problem with the libtcod library. This guy (who I've also seen on the roguelikedev subreddit) explains the problem in good detail = https://www.gridsagegames.com/blog/2014/09/fonts-in-roguelikes/  (starts talking about the libtcod issue at the header "Grid-Based Display"

EDIT3: Alpha V12 is now released. First post updated.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 11:34:25 AM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2018, 05:54:33 PM »
... really?

Try this link.
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2018, 06:35:12 PM »
Why was that necessary? Seriously, why?

I stated beforehand that I was using a .png file for the font. You could have mentioned that in order to use a TTF file for my purposes, that I'd need a font generator, instead of just saying here is what you need without explaining how to make it useful. I am still new to development; I don't know the jargon, the acronyms, or even what design methods I'm using that the gang of four would recommend. I've never been exposed to this kind of stuff before so how would I know that to use a font file I'd need a font generator. 

If you don't know what to google, how do you google it? Hmmm?

If you have a problem, but don't know how to put that problem into words, or you don't know fully what the problem is, how can you find a solution?

 

« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 06:37:28 PM by lordpalandus »
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2018, 06:37:54 AM »
There's something to be said about not knowing something and asking for help versus asking to be spoon fed and hand held through a process. Your response made it obvious you didn't even try, you immediately dismissed it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 06:46:15 AM by leeor_net »
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2018, 09:43:26 AM »
You give me a file format and you expect me to know what to do with it? How am I supposed to know that you can convert a TTF file to a PNG? I have never done that before or even heard of that before.

When someone doesn't know anything on a subject, is it unfair to expect at least some spoonfeeding? I get it that you don't want to do all my work for me, but giving me a resource when you could clearly tell I knew absolutely nothing on the topic; after all I did call it a sprite sheet, and not a glyph table... I've never worked with fonts before.

An analogy: It is like taking a young student into a metal-working workshop, giving them a piece of metal, and then telling them to make a ring out of it. They don't tell you anything about safety (except to wear safety equipment but not how to use equipment safely), or how to use the various tools available to you or even suggest a specific order to the process of creating a ring from the lump of metal you have and then leaving you to it. Case in Point, this also happened to me in 8th grade, and my teacher got pissed off at me when I wasn't doing it right, despite not taking the time to give the barest of spoon feeding so that I could help myself. Eventually the teacher got so mad at me, that he ripped the metal out of my hands and made the ring himself. Suffice to say, I hated that and I learned nothing from the course.

I'm still quite new to programming and development. You have like 10 years of experience on me; things that seem simple to you, are likely nearly impossible to me... like building a custom interface. If you are going to offer some complex technical help, with jargon that I've cleared never even heard of before, you need to be willing to grill me on the basics and give me some spoon feeding on the process, so that I can then take it from there.

If you had said that you can find monospaced font files on the internet, they come in ttf format and you can find a program to convert it into a font that I could use in my game, then that would have been enough information to get me started and to help myself with getting more information, if I get stuck. But leaving the font generator out, I did not know that it was a needed component in the process and didn't know that I should even look for one.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 09:46:12 AM by lordpalandus »
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2018, 06:28:25 PM »
I'm still quite new to programming and development. You have like 10 years of experience on me; things that seem simple to you, are likely nearly impossible to me...

25 years, actually (I started learning programming when I was 10)

Anyway, I can appreciate your point of view and you're right, sometimes I forget that you aren't drawing off two and a half decades worth of research and experience. Still though, there are often times when I don't know terms and jargon and yet I've never really found that to be a roadblock. With Google, it's very easy to get information and many times I have to sort through a lot before I find what I need. Good example is the connectedness algorithm used in OutpostHD -- I'd never had to solve that problem before so I started by searching for something similar -- the pipe game algorithms -- which lead me to the term `connectedness` which lead me to depth-first and breadth-first graph searches. To me suggesting monospaced fonts ought to have been enough -- from there you'd look for how to make an image file out of a truetype file which would have eventually lead to a bitmap font and ultimately a bitmap font generator. It requires some reading, yes, but that's part of the discovery and the understanding of it. Having complete answers dropped in your lap does a disservice to you, it forgoes you learning the hows and whys of things which in game development is far more important than you may be aware of.
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2018, 10:03:27 PM »
Okay, 25 years.

I understand what you are saying, but it isn't quite that simple. How for me to elaborate...

If a person has spent enough time with something, they have a whole lot more "memories/experiences/knowledge/etc" to draw on with their brain's heuristic algorithms to figure out a way around a problem. The more times you use heuristics, the stronger that portion of your brain will be, allowing you to get around more complex problems. If you have very little knowledge on a subject, it is nearly impossible to figure out a solution, using straight heuristics, as the brain lacks sufficient data to create a guess or even an assumption to help the person get around the problem.

So, in relation to this, you may know little about fonts yourself, but your years of experience gives you the ability to figure out heuristically what you might need to get around the issue. I lack those years of experience, and I lack the experience with fonts and thus I find myself getting stuck and requiring more info.

Discovery is great when you can discover it on your own, but until one has strengthened their internal heuristics, spoon feeding is often necessary to get a point across. Having complete answers CAN be a disservice; not knowing any way of creating a main event loop or even how to proceed and then given one is not a disservice. However, once you do know how to create a simple main event loop, it would be a disservice giving them the answers for optimizing the main event loop or eliminating possible memory leaks; learning how to do that is an important aspect of coding.

A person needs a foundation to build anything from; once that foundation is present, then it would be a disservice to just give them a full featured house, but until that person has a foundation, they need to be spoonfed to get them to the point of having a solid foundation. That is why people often ask for help online or do tutorials; they need that foundation before they can move forward and make something beautiful.

Or think of it this way: If you were 12 years old again (as I have about 2 years worth of programming experience), and someone gave you a true type font and told you you could use it as a png file, despite it being a ttf, would you be able to say that you could figure out that you'd need a font generator to solve that problem, despite never touching fonts up to that point (assuming of course there was a search engine available and a font generator out there)?

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Offline Hooman

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Re: Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade (ASCII) - Alpha V12
« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2018, 11:18:20 PM »
Huh, that article about the fonts was quite informative. Seems libtcod made the decision to use square spaces for fonts to preserve x/y distances on maps, while normal reading typically uses fonts that are taller than they are wide. Hence, if you're limited to a single font, you either have expanded text with extra spaces making it harder to read, or you have squished maps where things look much closer in the x direction than the same distance in the y direction.