Author Topic: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS  (Read 2529 times)

Offline leeor_net

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4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« on: October 17, 2016, 01:36:00 PM »
Holy shit, I hate this map.

DaRkInLiGhT, Genesis5000 and I played a couple of games on this map and it's... ugh. I just couldn't deal with it after awhile.

http://wiki.outpost2.net/doku.php?id=outpost_2:maps#borehole


This is making me wonder if we should go through and pull out the super shitty maps from OP2?
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Offline Arklon

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2016, 02:00:13 PM »
Ideally we'd hack in something like how Starcraft sends maps to players that join a MP game that don't have it, but in the interim, I wonder if we should separate out the non-official maps into a "community map pack" download, perhaps with a couple exceptions like the modified Pie Chart (the one that adds wall tiles at chokepoints) which replaced the original version of the map, etc.

Offline Hooman

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2016, 03:28:06 PM »
Lol. Come now leeor_net, you don't like the map so much that you want to actually pull it from the game? You realize that map has been part of the game for almost 20 years now.

Offline dave_erald

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2016, 04:21:30 PM »
General consensus would leave me to assume it's been a shit map for those 20 years.

Arklon has a good point that could be put in a newsletter. Community map pack thread sticky in the forum. Just something that is updated every once and awhile (yearly?) of community maps or packs. Maybe?
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2016, 04:34:05 PM »
See, Dave gets it. :P
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2016, 06:59:46 PM »
I was considering putting together a forum post with a listing/short description of all reasonably completed scenarios that were not included in the official download. Something like that would be a start anyways. Maybe mildly self serving since I've put out a couple of scenarios that I would want added to the list...

There is a broken multiplayer map (Punwick Junction, map file is not in release) and a crash buggy multiplayer map (Forsaken World, scenario always crashes on me about midway through the first evacuation to escape the blight) currently in the official release. These should probably be fixed or removed and commented on before they are fixed.

Leeor_Net, Thanks for using the maps page on the Wiki!

Offline leeor_net

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2016, 07:10:52 PM »
Leeor_Net, Thanks for using the maps page on the Wiki!

It's an enormously useful tool and now that it's integrated with the rest of the site I want to fully take advantage of it. Your work certainly hasn't gone unnoticed!

I was considering putting together a forum post with a listing/short description of all reasonably completed scenarios that were not included in the official download. Something like that would be a start anyways. Maybe mildly self serving since I've put out a couple of scenarios that I would want added to the list...

There is a broken multiplayer map (Punwick Junction, map file is not in release) and a crash buggy multiplayer map (Forsaken World, scenario always crashes on me about midway through the first evacuation to escape the blight) currently in the official release. These should probably be fixed or removed and commented on before they are fixed.

Please do -- if there are broken maps in the distribution they should be pulled until they are reasonably fixed.

I've been talking to some of the other mods about updating the official build with some of the newer releases using yours as a reference. But I didn't know if they were ready to be published on that level -- seems like there's a few more to come.

That stated, we were talking about how to distribute new maps and there was a suggestion of putting together map 'packages', basically just ZIP file compilations of maps that are ready for publishing that users can download and install at their leisure. Actually I think it was even this post.

But yes, the idea is that we really want to take advantage of the user base and push for more user content. It will help to breath new life into OP2.
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2016, 09:06:57 PM »
Two questions:

1) Whats wrong with the map, other than having TONS of chokepoints and the potential for turtling?

2) Is that an evil grinning face in the center of the map or just my imagination.
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2016, 09:16:52 PM »
The volcanic eruptions. Once that happens the lava flows really fast throughout the map creating very tiny choke points making only one attack vector possible. Basically, your opponents can see you coming a mile away and can prepare for your attack by closing off the lone, very tiny entrance into their colony. Even on game speed 10 it takes FOREVER to get to your opponent.

Had OP2 had flying units this would be mitigated but alas, so such beasts exist.
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Offline Sirbomber

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2016, 02:46:26 PM »
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2016, 02:54:22 PM »
Gah! Sirbomber, you and the blight!

 :'( :'(
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Offline BlackBox

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 09:28:58 PM »
Fun fact about this map for those who don't know: it was actually a Dynamix-created map, that came with the game (or one of the official updates) but not actually playable since none of the included missions actually reference it.

BoreHole was a mission created by (I think) zigzagjoe so that the map could be actually played. That said, I agree that I think the map kinda sucks... it wouldn't be as bad if the game's pathfinding was better, or if the map was smaller.

This is making me wonder if we should go through and pull out the super shitty maps from OP2?

I don't know if I see value in removing content from the game, especially content that came with the game originally. Whether a map sucks is kind of a matter of personal taste, IMHO we should include as much content as we can that's not obviously broken (this map may suck for various reasons, but I wouldn't classify it as "broken" in that it doesn't cause the game to crash or anything like that).

Offline leeor_net

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2016, 07:30:40 AM »
Fun fact about this map for those who don't know: it was actually a Dynamix-created map, that came with the game (or one of the official updates) but not actually playable since none of the included missions actually reference it.

BoreHole was a mission created by (I think) zigzagjoe so that the map could be actually played. That said, I agree that I think the map kinda sucks... it wouldn't be as bad if the game's pathfinding was better, or if the map was smaller.

I did not know that. Though I don't remember it in the options when I used to play back in the days of WON so that would explain it.

This is making me wonder if we should go through and pull out the super shitty maps from OP2?

I don't know if I see value in removing content from the game, especially content that came with the game originally. Whether a map sucks is kind of a matter of personal taste, IMHO we should include as much content as we can that's not obviously broken (this map may suck for various reasons, but I wouldn't classify it as "broken" in that it doesn't cause the game to crash or anything like that).

That was more of a frustrated quip than anything else.

The map wouldn't be so bad if the volcanoes didn't erupt. Does OP2 do that automatically or do you have to actually code that in there?
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2016, 10:03:31 AM »
Leeor,

You have to code volcano eruptions into the scenario. Just because you place volcano tiles in the map maker, doesn't mean it will erupt.

You can make the eruption conditional on the disasters check mark being selected, but that is entirely up to the scenario's programmer. I don't know if Bore Hole forces the eruption even if disasters are not enabled.

Do you remember if you checked disasters on or not for the game?

Offline leeor_net

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2016, 10:06:58 AM »
I kinda figured that, I was just curious.

I didn't set up the game but if memory serves disasters were not turned off.
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2016, 10:22:42 PM »
Interesting how volcanoes can make a map, shitty, eh? If the volcanoes are the issue, then remove them. That way there isn't one path into their base. Alternatively, you could keep the volcano but modify the terrain a bit so that there is multiple possible ways to get into the base, rather than one single killbox area.
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Offline Highlander

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2016, 12:38:59 AM »
Then again, people often like to hide their bases in easily defensive positions with as few entrances as possible
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Offline Hooman

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2016, 08:30:49 AM »
Quote
Fun fact about this map for those who don't know: it was actually a Dynamix-created map, that came with the game (or one of the official updates) but not actually playable since none of the included missions actually reference it.
Oh yeah. Fascinating. I forgot about that.

I like the idea of having a chokepoint map. Maybe I'd hate it if I played it, but I still like having the option to play it.

I'd rather see more included in the download rather than less.

Offline Sirbomber

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2016, 08:45:02 AM »
The map actually was used, in a sense.  A screenshot on the back of the box was taken on what appears to be that map.


But yes, ZZJ could've done a better job when he made it playable.  I remember the "meteor showers" were particularly annoying, just because it flooded you with about 20 disaster warning messages.
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Offline BlackBox

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2016, 09:08:47 AM »
Interesting, nice detective work!

As an aside, I've noticed a lot of the screenshots that they used in documentation, on the box art, etc don't actually attempt to be real representations of game play, instead it looks like screenshots from early debugging missions; for example, there are at least a couple out there that appear to be taken from the mission us_them.dll, which isn't really a real playable mission: it was essentially just a test mission with all of the Eden and Plymouth buildings laid out on a small map. We ended up removing it from the OPU version since it's not really playable (there are no mission objectives, and certain players are forced to be eden and plymouth, respectively).

There was also another Dynamix map included with the game that was not used, that spelled out "DIE, BUT HAVE A NICE DAY" with a smiley face. I think it's been used for some missions that people have created here.

But yes, ZZJ could've done a better job when he made it playable.  I remember the "meteor showers" were particularly annoying, just because it flooded you with about 20 disaster warning messages.
Ahh yes, I forgot about those. Maybe we could consider just remaking/tuning this mission so that it's actually somewhat playable? (at the very least, any of the disaster-setting function should not be getting called if disasters are disabled in the settings).

Offline leeor_net

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2016, 11:31:12 AM »
I'm not opposed to choke points for player's basis but when the lava flows the whole map becomes a labyrinth with all your units single-filing their way around the center part of the map zig zagging back and forth. Without the lava flows or at least with much less spread of lava flows and adding high yield mines to the center of the map (borehole), this would then become the focal point of the map and the central location would become a prize that's difficult to defend (open from all sides) but highly desirable because of the high resource value. Plus, if you could defend that position it would become very easy to launch attacks against the players at the four corners of the map.

At the moment there are two mines in the center of the map, 1bar and 2bar. Useless which get covered over by lava anyway. The player locations have some mines that are also low yield so you end up either having to rush out a bunch of laser lynx's and rush to your enemy before the volcanoes erupt or you have to turtle yourself in and hope that you can build enough defenses for whatever attack another player may throw your way.

And, as Sirbomber pointed out, the seemingly endless "Incoming Meteor" warnings.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2016, 11:44:07 PM »
Fascinating note about the screenshot on the back of the box. And how on earth did you notice that?

Interesting note about us_them.dll. I wasn't aware anything like that had been removed.

Offline Arklon

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2016, 11:09:12 AM »
Fascinating note about the screenshot on the back of the box. And how on earth did you notice that?
The minimap gives it away. The only other map that looks even remotely like that is Coliseum, but that map doesn't have any gray rock terrain.

Offline Highlander

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2016, 11:56:23 PM »
The map actually was used, in a sense.  A screenshot on the back of the box was taken on what appears to be that map.

Wow, I always assumed it was an unknown/unused/random map that screenshot was taken from, but your post cleared that up! Nice work!

Any idea which maps the other screenshots from the OP2 box are taken from ?
(I dont have my box here, so some might be easily recognisable I suppose, but I seem to remember some being unknown)
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Offline Sirbomber

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Re: 4P "BoreHole" SUCKS
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2016, 01:42:06 PM »
Here's what I've got (using the images located here:

Red Eden: Unknown.  Possibly an early version of Allied Siege?  As an aside, I don't think that terrain feature on the plateau in the bottom right exists in the final game.
Plymouth hit by vortex: Around the World
Red Plymouth vs Green Eden: Eden #1 (actually taken from us_them.dll)
Plymouth hit by storm: Unknown.  Possibly an early version of Around the World, but more likely a map for testing world maps.  Note how in the minimap the entire planet appears to be a flat gray.
Plymouth hit by meteor shower: Plymouth #1
Random Plymouth colony: Unknown.
Three Colonies: What we now call Borehole.

Does anyone have higher-resolution scans they could upload?
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