Author Topic: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested  (Read 103476 times)

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2015, 01:17:35 AM »
Interesting. A good suggestion Leeor, I'll need to take a look into it once I start doing my UE4 catch-up (as I've not used it for at least two patches so I'm sure there will be some new stuff to work with, especially as when I lasted tried it it didn't actually have that Tower Defense game at the time)
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2015, 09:54:54 PM »
Just so everyone knows, I got struck with a viral flu on Monday, fought it off by Thursday and then got a bacterial infection (tonsilitius) later on Thursday of this week. I am quite sick, and completely invalid. Thus I have not got any work done lately. I am interested in doing it, but right now, I'm not interested in doing anything other than sleep. So yeah. Laters.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2015, 02:33:58 AM »
Get well soon.

So..., if we start giving you commands for things to do, will they be invalid commands?  :D

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #128 on: December 13, 2015, 01:13:27 AM »
Well feeling quite a bit better... at least physically.

Right now I'm working through a variety of life changes that need to take place. I had set out in September after my returning from my trip, to do a 3-month goal. Suffice to say I didn't succeed at my goal, but I learned a lot of valuable lessons, and pertinent information that I feel I should utilize to affect my life in a positive way before I set about the task of creating a new 3-month plan. Yes, I said plan and not goal; I do see the two as being different and that is one of the changes I will be implementing.

I feel these life changes are necessary in order to succeed at developing a game, and thus I feel it is critical to address them now. 

EDIT: I've been making a lot of headway recently with my changes I feel are necessary. I've put together an effective problem solving system for myself and a way to combat distraction and remain focused on my tasks. I felt a little update would be appropriate as I've been silent for over a week.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 06:08:06 PM by lordpalandus »
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #129 on: December 29, 2015, 09:23:18 PM »
Just so everyone knows, I got struck with a viral flu on Monday, fought it off by Thursday and then got a bacterial infection (tonsilitius) later on Thursday of this week. I am quite sick, and completely invalid. Thus I have not got any work done lately. I am interested in doing it, but right now, I'm not interested in doing anything other than sleep. So yeah. Laters.

As opposed to... bacterial flu? No such beast.

Anyway, I know the feeling. I was totally wiped out for three weeks with what started out as a flu and developed into more serious complications. Have recovered now at least.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #130 on: January 01, 2016, 07:42:58 PM »
It is strange that viral flus are less menacing than bacterial flus, while the most dangerous things a person can get are Viruses, such as HIV.

However, making much progress on changes and on the project. I've been analyzing it critically, and noticed some things that are not likely to be complicated to implement (complicated as compared to nearly impossible) and thus I'm looking at removing them and fixing the rest of the design to operate without them. I've decided that having complicated Orbital Layers and the ability to switch between an orbital view with orbital structures and a ground view and ground structures is needlessly complex and even if it wasn't complex, I don't really know how I'd go about doing it right now anyway.

Wanted to get some work done on it today, but had to fight with my computer as Windows Update forcefully downloaded a "BAD" "security update". Only thing it did that I noticed was that it prevented Windows from detecting my second monitor. I checked its drivers, cords, wires, and graphics card drivers and all were working properly. Uninstalling the security update though fixed the problem. I really want to know why a security update would prevent windows from detecting a second monitor... how is a second monitor plugged into the same graphics card a security risk?
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #131 on: January 02, 2016, 01:03:02 AM »
There's an awful lot of information that can leak through a million pixels. ;)

So what work were you planning on doing? How were you going to start?

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #132 on: January 02, 2016, 06:38:45 PM »
Haha, that's a good point, Hooman.

Well, one of the things I was going to work on was the change to the User Interface. By not having an orbital layer, the UI wouldn't need a way to switch between the orbital layer / planetary layer and all the information that would have been displayed graphically, with space-based units would now need to be condensed down into a simpler interface tab, likely in the Colony Tabs.

As for other work, I had compiled a large list of design strategies from designing a bunch of other game prototypes before I came upon deciding to make a game like Outpost 2. Thing is I've not looked at it at all since starting to work on this game, and thus I feel I should check it over to see if there was any wisdom I wrote down that I might want to consider.

As for figuring out where to start, I'll figure it with some problem solving, and create a variety of SMART goals to accomplish each stage of the redesign. I'm in a way getting tired of redesigns, but as I continue to work at things I realize how some things are unrealistic or needlessly complex and don't add anything by being there and instead detract from the gameplay and thus I feel another redesign, but with fewer redesign changes is necessary. I'm running out of things I need to change so hopefully this will be the "final" design so that I can put together a complete design document and share that.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #133 on: January 02, 2016, 08:51:26 PM »
Nothing is ever final. Changes occur right up to release, and then again afterwards with release patches. And don't forget there is always the possibility of a sequel. :)

Embrace change! ... But yes, do celebrate once the changes start getting smaller. :P

And remember to eventually start on something. Having something to look at and play with helps to refine the plan. Do you have any plans to start on something other than a design doc? Where do you see yourself starting? Will you start with some code? Graphics or models? User interface? Tech trees? More abstract game concepts (like being able to simulate gameplay without having a user interface to see or interact with, but helps verify and balance your gameplay model)?

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #134 on: January 03, 2016, 02:18:29 AM »
Yeh, that is true. Nothing is technically final. Its just a matter of how much work you want to invest to make the changes when its in a more concrete form.

Well, I am learning to embrace change and appreciate it. Its valuable and although sometimes costly, always worth it in the end.

As for where I'd like to start, I think that I'd like to start on combat mechanics and unit control. In the short-term I can use mostly placeholder objects for units and placeholder code for structures while I work on combat mechanics and unit control. I can "likely" (keyword) do this within UE4 exclusively with a minimum of C++ coding (except for coding some of the AI decision making as that must be AFAIK be done in C++ exclusively as there isn't blueprints for AI decision making). As a major component of the game will be interacting with vehicles, namely tanks, and ordering them to do combat actions, I'd want to spend some time prototyping and testing different ideas out with them. I also want to see how the engine handles large numbers of units on the screen; if it works anything like Supreme Commander, I would expect there to be framerate drops and weird AI behaviors due to the event queue getting clogged with too many events that it cannot process fast enough and would like to use a profiler tool to see where it might be possible to get gains or reduce the overhead in some way (naturally as they would be placeholder objects, they wouldn't have the same impact as finished models, with finished effects [sound, lighting, shadows, weapons, movement effects (dust, tread marks, etc), etc] but it might still be useful to see where the bottlenecks would be.
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #135 on: January 03, 2016, 06:26:33 AM »
You're prematurely assuming there will be bottlenecks. Looking to optimize something, are you? You know what they say about premature optimization. ;)


What part of combat control will you work on? Converting user input (mouse, keyboard) into unit commands? Acting on units commands (moving units about)? Simple reflexive AI (if attacked, attack back, possibly charge in if out of range)?

How does this tie in with UE4? What support do they have? What is their API like for the parts you need to code yourself? Is there a specific part of it you're already familiar with that you plan to work with, or do you still need to read and learn what their API offers?

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #136 on: January 04, 2016, 04:36:55 PM »
You are technically right I'm prematurely assuming there will be bottlenecks. But as almost every game seems to need optimization these days, that brings up the question, why do they need optimization? From looking at some games, (i'm staring at you bethesaida), these games seem to lack a consistent standard of quality throughout development and thus require the optimization. Though, in Bethesaida's case, you'd think they would know by NOW how to do a proper open world game, as Fallout 4 is their 5th mega-large open world game (haven't played any of their's before morrowind so only counting Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4). They know their engine and their file formats back to front... why do their code have so many bugs? ... If you were an employer you'd expect that over time and over several projects, they would become more and more experienced, such that their quality goes up. With bethesaida, it doesn't seem like they learn anything as some of their bugs from Morrowind era, are still there in Fallout 4. I dunno, I expect bottlenecks, because many triple AAA games seem to run into bottlenecks and as a result require huge optimizations.

However, from what I do understand about optimization, its often things that developers have little control over directly, such as reaching your draw call limit. I heard that before Assassin's Creed Unity was patched it was hitting 25000 draw calls per frame, when the maximum they could do per frame to maintain a stable framerate was 10000. How does one optimize that?

Well, from looking at the documentation, I could create a relatively basic UI, and code specific commands to keybindings, instead of buttons on the interface. I had intended to create and test several basic commands, such as Move, Stop, Attack, and Stand Ground. I wanted to test out the hitboxes to ensure that weapons fire was indeed hitting the target and causing some kind of effect (ie loss of HP as a very basic example). I wanted to ensure that when a unit is destroyed, it leaves behind a husk; similar to those husks that are created in Supreme Commander when a unit is destroyed. Reflexive AI would also be something I'd want to test out; it would be important to test it out with a command like Stand Ground, to ensure that the unit will stay where it is but attack at enemies within range, but units without a Stand Ground command would need to move within range and attack.

I've spent some time looking at how keybindings work in UE4, and how to setup a way to rebind those keys. I've taken some time to also look at UMG, the tool used to create interfaces for UE4. I've messed around a bit with camera controls, to get the camera to the right angle and height for a RTS. You can create objects made from prefabs, and attach code to them and thus use them as temporary objects for units until the actual models are ready. From what I've learned from it most of the stuff is straight forward, but I still need to know how to setup the gamestate, UI/Camera and player controller for a RTS. I'd want to reread these sections again though in case they have changed much since 4.7 when I read them last (they've released 4 patches since then, with a possible 5th coming out soon) and as many patches have come out since then, its likely they have. A good place to start would be to check out, as suggested by someone here, the tower defense game demo that UE4 released for the engine and see how it does things to get an idea.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2016, 07:11:15 AM »
I'm not sure I agree. I often get the sense optimization is less important these days. Hardware gets more powerful over time, and ever growing software projects rely increasingly on libraries and frameworks of already built, tested, and optimized code. I suspect optimization is now less of a concern at the application level. In many ways, optimization is choosing the right library function or data structure, rather than applying any detailed knowledge of algorithms or CPUs to get code to run faster. Which isn't to say it doesn't help to understand that stuff, as it helps you choose the correct library implementation to use. Programmer time, related to cost, is usually a bigger concern than CPU time. Higher level languages are chosen increasingly over lower level "fast" languages. (Languages don't really have an inherent speed. That's more an implementation detail). Essentially, get a product to market before you run out of money. Slow code is still better than no code. And on today's hardware, things will generally run good enough without special optimization, provided you didn't start with a terrible design. But this is all unsupported speculation on my part.

Of course the notion of programmer time being related to cost doesn't really relate well to hobby projects where there is no money. So, if it makes you happy, I suppose optimize away.


An interesting exercise is to consider the time cost of optimization vs the time savings of optimized code:
Project A: You need to run some custom conversion code once. It takes 4 hours to complete. If you spend 45 minutes working on it, you can get it down to 1.5 hours to complete. You need results quickly to continue on with the project.
Project B: You need to run some custom conversion code once. It's grossly inefficient, to the point of being offensive. It takes 5 minutes to run. If you spend 30 minutes working on it, you can get it down to 20 seconds. The code will likely never be run again.
Project C: You run the code every day for a year. It takes 5 minutes to run. After a day of optimization, it now only takes 4 minutes to run.
  Case 1: The code is done in a batch processing script overnight.
  Case 2: The code is run in an interactive desktop app.
Project D: You run the code every day for a year. It takes 10 seconds to run. After 2 days of optimization, it now only takes 0.5 seconds to run. The code is run in an interactive desktop app.


As for what you're working on, you've listed quite a number of things. Where do you think your next day worth of effort will go?

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2016, 12:14:02 PM »
Well I suppose it really depends on how many things you want to occur simulataneously then, which is where optimization is necessary. Most AAA games these days tries to force as many objects on the screen with as many polygons as possible with the highest number of pixels of textures, with as many actors with AI onto the screen. You'd think that trying to have so many things would require optimization. Most operating systems have a finite cap on the maximum RAM used by the system (I'm not referring to the 32/64 bit stuff, but that different OSs of WIndows have different caps, such as I think Home Windows 8 is 16 GB, but Professional is 32 GB or something). Despite the need for it, not every game supports SLI or Crossfire support, which implies they expect you to use a single card to run the entire game and for some games that isn't feasible (ie if you have a powerful enough system, you can technically run Batman Arkman Knight on PC with 60 FPS, but for most people to run it they'd need SLI or Crossfire support, but it doesn't have it).

If your RTS only does 100 v 100 unit battles, it likely doesn't need much optimization or any. But if it is doing 1000+ vs 1000+ units, then optimization is necessary. As for my limited understanding, there is a cost involved in interpreting code at runtime with very high level languages (ie Scripting) and I wonder if that is partially why Supreme Commander had problems when you tried to have 1000 v 1000 unit battles as most of its code utilizes a Scripting Language (Lua I think). I've run Supreme Commander on this machine and I still get huge framerate drops into the single digits when there is over 600 v 600 unit battles. How does Outpost 2 handle having 1023 vs 1023 units (as I believe its said somewhere that you could only have 0-1023 as unit numbers without a stack overflow)? Its an older game, with far less graphics than modern games, and even though it uses one core, I still bet it doesn't function as intended (ie units not doing what you want them to do or not responding for a long period of time).

Actually it does still apply to hobby projects. Its called opportunity cost; the cost of something else forgone to do this activity. So if I spend 2 hours optimizing, then I can't spend that 2 hours adding in new features. Everything has a cost; it just isn't always money.

Next day of effort will go towards more adaptations; I've carefully analyzed my current position and how I've tried to do things over the past year, and without these changes and adaptations and changes of perspective, attempting to do this project will be an impossible task. Yes, impossible. Therefore, to succeed I need to make some tough changes. I've made many of them already and continue to work at it to make the rest. Maybe not what you wanted to hear, but it is what it is. I've doing things over the past year over and over in the same manner, and getting the same lack of results and I feel I would be insane if I continued to try and expect different results. Thus changes are necessary to ensure things are different this year.

Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #139 on: February 08, 2016, 06:10:35 PM »
Well, I know its been a while since last I posted, but I'm finished with personal life changes, and have moved onto learning the various programs to work towards making a very simple RTS.

By simple, I mean something like:
- Headquarters structure (or starter structure) that builds other structures
- Factory structure that builds vehicles
- Vehicle with a gun

So you have two structures and one unit. The purpose would be to destroy the enemy base while preventing your own base destruction. It would be a simple way to design a RTS and ensure that I understand how to build the interface, various controls, and basic enemy AI, which are all foundational concepts that are needed for a more complicated RTS to function properly. So, over the next few weeks I will be working towards building this simple RTS prototype. From there, I intend to try and build on this foundation and create my more complicated RTS.

So I just thought I should update everyone that I'm now starting to move forward and the project isn't abandoned. I'll post back here in probably a week (sooner if someone replies) with my progress for the week. Cheers!
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline dave_erald

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #140 on: February 08, 2016, 10:10:52 PM »
Awesome, let us know what happens and if you need help.
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Offline Hooman

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2016, 12:58:27 AM »
Yes indeed.

You mentioned learning various programs towards making your RTS. Do you have a clear idea of the software you are going to use at this step?

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2016, 10:18:03 AM »
The software I plan on using to create the RTS are:

Blender (modelling, building the uv maps, and rigging if necessary)
GIMP (making and editing uv mapped textures)
Audacity (sound editing where necessary; likely get some free sound effects from Free Sound)
Unreal Engine 4 (most of the work done here)
Visual Studio (apparently "required" to do C++, if blueprint scripting can't accomplish what I need)

Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline leeor_net

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2016, 11:21:10 AM »
Visual Studio isn't required -- you could use something else like Code::Blocks if you knew which dependencies you needed to link to and how to set up the build environment with either GCC or LLVM.

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Offline Hooman

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2016, 06:33:48 AM »
Very good to know. Nice that you have your tools figured out.

What kind of sound editing were you thinking of doing?


Your tool set and goals still cover a lot of ground. Do you have a more detailed and narrow plan of action?

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #145 on: February 11, 2016, 05:52:35 PM »
I'm doing quite a bit of planning and research to figure out what I need to learn, and focus on that for now. There is a whole lot of stuff I'd like to learn, but for now my focus is on getting something basic up and running, and functional; something that I can use as a foundation and build off of, or use it as a prototype, learn from it, and build something better with what I learned.

Preferably very little sound editing, as I don't have any sound editing equipment, just a program, so at best I'll be able to do some minor tweaks to existing sounds, with the intent that if I grab a freely usable sound, I might be able to work with it and see how to intergrate into the game. Since many freely offered sounds may not be of the same "tune?" it would require retuning them. I'm sure that's not the word for it, but when it comes to art design, there is a thing called aesthetic. If the art design doesn't match up, then things start to stick out like a sore thumb. Same thing with sounds.

Also, good to know that I might be able to use Code::Blocks; I've used Code::Blocks before, but never Visual Studio.
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #146 on: February 11, 2016, 07:35:49 PM »
I've used Audacity in the past for changing audio formats. It also works well for minor edits like combining multiple sound effects, equalizing volume between effects, cutting out the beginning/end of sound effects, or fading sound effects in and out.

Be careful using FreeSound. Each file has a different license with differing requirements. Some require attribution in work, some are not allowed be use in commercial applications, and some do not allow editing of the effect, etc. I would read each license and make sure it is agreeable before taking the sound effect.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Your end goals sounds like they could make an enjoyable game.

Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #147 on: February 19, 2016, 09:32:30 PM »
Well, I'm making good progress with Blender. I've finished learning how to properly use Object Mode, and about half-way through learning how to use Edit Mode. There is a lot of possible options and tools available, but many of them are very contextual and thus only useful for specific tasks. I've focused on learning the tools that I'll be using most often to reduce the amount of learning needed and so that I have fewer shortcuts to remember.

Good to know about Free Sounds. I'll need to be careful in choosing sounds then. Thanks for the heads up!
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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Offline dave_erald

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #148 on: February 19, 2016, 09:37:03 PM »
Blender is actually fairly simple to work with, it's making good looking things that's a cock and a half to accomplish.


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Offline lordpalandus

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Re: Outpost 2-LIKE game - Community Input requested
« Reply #149 on: February 21, 2016, 08:58:58 PM »
Do you happen to know how to use Blender? I ask because I'm having a difficult time understanding how to apply a texture. This would be the texture made from the UV Layout exported by Blender after the mesh has been unwrapped to one's satisfaction. I ask because the manual doesn't explain the process all that well, and I've read multiple tutorials and each seems to explain how to do it in different ways, confusing me further.

Its the last thing I need to learn before I can consider Blender now learned (and thus able to move onto another task of learning for next week)

EDIT: After reading through about 6 different tutorials, I finally figured it out. Now if only I knew what a UV channel was...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 02:53:10 AM by lordpalandus »
Currently working on Cataclysm of Chaos, Remade.
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