Author Topic: Need Feedback And Opinions  (Read 1098 times)

Offline Lord Of Pain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • http://
Need Feedback And Opinions
« on: February 25, 2010, 05:36:16 PM »
I NEED SUPPORT!
If you are good at interperating people, arguments, strong points, faults, facts, and other logical means to support or not support a popular topic, and you have the pateince to read 16 pages of posts, you may help.

So anyways, on runescape forums there is a new arguement going around;

Keep merchantingclans alive!" i think this is ok, but support scaming/bots/RWT in runecape is against the rules and he supports it becuase he makes a profit.

So far he is not swaying from his arguement that they should all stay....


Here is the link please read all 16+ pages of posts in order to firmly and clearly understand the sides of this arguement.

http://services.runescape.com/m=forum/foru...60394766,goto,1

Oh, and im in there too, first one to guess who i am in there gets a free cupcake!

(This excludes you, ck9, from earning a cupcake, you don't deserve it :P)

JK; though just don't ruin it for everyone else :P
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 06:11:17 PM by Lord Of Pain »
*Your tourtured bodies lay wastefully in the cabinate of caligari, and yours truly will haunt everyone in this channel for the sake of giving you pain. thus his spirit be mine; you shall all wither in pain by the clutches of your maker. all whom defy the pain must be punished; all whom can't endure the pain must suffer more; all who are weak and unworthy must be put to unrestfully sleep in their forsakened graves. all who defy shall be cursed by thy wicked hands of death. all who dont beleive will perish befor the flames of painful sins. those who are mortal surely cannot survive the wrath of the LORD OF PAIN. it is a given golden rule that you cannot defeat the power of pain; you cannot even dream of having that much power.Im getting hungary for thanks giving. Well im getting Austria for halloween. Would you settle for turkey? Naw im haveing newzealand.

Offline Lord Of Pain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • http://
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 05:48:59 PM »
Definitions: Merchclan: a group of people who make a profit out of buying low, and selling for high.
RWT: Realworldtrading, also against the rules of Runesape.
RS:runescape.
macroling: the use of illegal outside programs/hacks to gain an unfair advantage over the game, it's cheating basically.

The arguement: Should merchanting clans be aloud in runescape? Should scaming clans be aloud? do people make or loose money from scam clans? Is the mmajority of merchanting clans considered scam-proned?

One side thinks Merchantingclans/scaming/bots/RWT if it help the majority of people in the game, it has to stay. They also try to make merchanting clans look good. OP repeats phrases incase people disregarded his posts.

Other side argues that:
Merchantingclans are groups of people who drive the in-game stockmarket prices to skyrocket, then crash making it impossible to trade in these circumstances. Claims the op is naive and blind as to what is happening. Theyalso have more support in this thread. They are ding everything they can to make the OP look bad.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 06:09:50 PM by Lord Of Pain »
*Your tourtured bodies lay wastefully in the cabinate of caligari, and yours truly will haunt everyone in this channel for the sake of giving you pain. thus his spirit be mine; you shall all wither in pain by the clutches of your maker. all whom defy the pain must be punished; all whom can't endure the pain must suffer more; all who are weak and unworthy must be put to unrestfully sleep in their forsakened graves. all who defy shall be cursed by thy wicked hands of death. all who dont beleive will perish befor the flames of painful sins. those who are mortal surely cannot survive the wrath of the LORD OF PAIN. it is a given golden rule that you cannot defeat the power of pain; you cannot even dream of having that much power.Im getting hungary for thanks giving. Well im getting Austria for halloween. Would you settle for turkey? Naw im haveing newzealand.

Offline Lord Of Pain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • http://
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 05:54:29 PM »
DO NOT TAKE THIS ALL LITERALLY MOST IS OPINION!

Note that in my posts, i have quotes in between {} brakets and my judgemnet starting with a dash right under it.



{{{{{My posts}}}}}}The op thinks he can twist and turn information that has been proven wrong. Indeed anyone who is not blind will know that the only people profiting are the people aware of merchanting clans, not in definition, but as to dates and dumping times, and mostly luck.

It is a fact that the majority of so proclaimed merchanting clans (thats 50 to 3) will scam you by dumping their stock befor the price falls. It is also a fact that these clans sell their stock long befor the price reaches it's peak.
Also note that it's a fact that only people who are close to the bosses will ever find out about when to dump. Nobody can read theiir minds, and there is no trend that indicates when they are dumping, only for after they dumped. In conclusion you can't say that you can just look at the ge graphs. Sure there are spikes, but thats from people buying the item from the scammers stock.

The op also assumes everyone has brains, this is not the case. There are alot more idiots in this world then most people realize. Hence is why they are loosing money. Not everyone looks at the ge graphs, sure maybe the smart players. Iv seen many morrons on this game, from not knowing that f2p scorpions are nonpoisoness to not being realistic on how the game works; "safer! safer!" yes the majority of runescape is as dumb as can be thinking it's bad to eat in the middle of a pvp fight. This same dumbness comes to this arguement; not everyone is smart enough to make a profit, and probably never will be. Yes i know that people change, but also consider there are more people under level 100 in f2p who are effected than all the level 70+ p2p of runescape as a whole. Also consider that people in f2p normally arent as experianced as members. And finally, note that these clans effect the entire f2p population in a negative way due to there ill judgements.
The only reason these clans are living is because the f2p population is the biggest unranked participator in the scams. This is all truth. beleive it!  
Cliviax Doom
 

 25-Feb-2010 22:50:56
The op beleives that pvp has to do with price rises? and/or prices staying high?

This is only half true, some pvp items have infact been horded by the scammercherclans. Like strengh potions (very popular in f2p) verac's helm, went up like 3m in one month(approx). Other barrows armors might have been effected.
Granite mace went below 3k and is still under 10k, which is outrageous and has been undervalued for over 5 months. (Proves prices dont always go back to normal though only in rare cases like this.)

-about my post befor this-
The majority of ruunescape is infact noobs. tons of people of under level 100 and most (not all) act under the influence by my perspective. I know of several people in real life who were under the influence (12 years old or younger) that have played and goten past level 100. These underaged people know not the ways of scams or merchanting, they also can't tell the difference. Im not saying everyone is who act like this is underaged, just a large chunk of runescape. like at least 60%... Besides that, i know people who say this game is for yung children because they grew out of it. THIS GAME IS AIMED FOR CHILDREN 5-16 FOR THE MAJORITY. I know jagex does not do this intentionaly, it's really just the gameplay and how person-freindly the npc enviroment is. I know of a level 110 who has less than 3m cash and items, he is really poor.

This all justifies my point that most people on runecapse (even level 100+) are noobs.

And the point that most people in this game are noobs justifies that most people don't use their brains when buying/selling at the ge. There are also peole whoo arent noobs who dont study the ge graphs closly or even notice changes (like me). However we do realize (for the most part) after the price has skyrocketed or crashed.

And that leads to why people don't make as much mmoney from mercherclans as you say

All of this is fact and can be proven by jagex, they know their players. You cant prove against this writing in stone  


so unless you bring a totally new reason on how people make money

from mercxhanting clans people wont beleive you, just the naive.

{"- If someone sees an item they want to buy suddenly rise in value, they might avoid buying it and wait for the price to level out.- If someone sees an item they want to sell suddenly collapse in value, they might avoid selling it and wait for the price to level out. - If someone sees an item they want to buy collapse in value, they might try to buy it before the price levels out. - If someone sees an item they want to sell rise in value, they might try to sell it before the price levels out. "}
-The majority does not know to do this.}Most people take their cnahces to get transactions over with.

{Occasionally, everyone, including you and me, simply puts in a blind offer just to get the transaction over with.}
-It's more than occasionally, people do it all the time.


{“In conclusion, price shifts are friends, not foes, but said price shifts should be done by actual supply and demand, not people looking to manipulate the prices of a certain item.”

Again, just because someone makes use of something doesn’t make it bad.
You have an equal potential to make use of the manipulation and you most likely do, unawares. } It does make it wrong because it's considered 'cheating' and is not the "spirit of the game."

Normal merchanting clans, in fact, DO influence and manipulate price shifts via the GE.

(to be continued)  
Cliviax Doom
 

 26-Feb-2010 00:00:08
Scam-clans function by tricking others into false rewards and robbing them of their money.
However, using price manipulation as their main method, many people can and do make use of the manipulation, whether or not they know it.}
The only reason scam clans make money is tricking people into helping them change the price of an item and make it unstable. Only scamclans manipulate prices. Merchanting clans like iv stated before is not telling people what items to buy or hording and item, its giveing feedback on what is rising and falling in prices NOTHING MORE!!!

YOU PROVEN WRONG BY OTHERS:____________________>

{There is nothing immoral about taking an item that you genuinely believe is going to rise due to actual demand and selling it at a later date. However, getting together and deciding to manipulate an item is not fair and is essentially a loophole in the system being taken advantage of. }
I agree with this mod 100% he knows what hes talking about, you dont.


{Is that why the leaders and ranks sit in the cc saying "buy at max!buy at max!!" ??? What an obviously blatant falsehood. Prices do not RISE by buying at low. That's why the lemmings are told to buy at high. The force the price up.}

-Yet again proves my point that you dont know what your talking about.

{Those facts *are* deniable because I am not aware of unwittingly profiting from the actions of these clans.}

-This guy is right, becuase you can't possibly know how he makes money, only he knows how he makes money, the player always knows there profit. ALWAYS! Proves
my point you are lieing, cuss nobody can read his mind, you cant read my mind, so you dont know that we are making profit from clans or not.

*"Keep scam-clans, botting, luring, and burdens alive despite jagex's
rules against it"}
-That alone can justify that this thread will be closed sooner or later. It also ruins your support because you support all yourself even after being proven wrong time after time again  
Cliviax Doom
 

 26-Feb-2010 00:07:12
You statments of "riskoverreward" ultimately false. Although only half true, the risk that you get in merchanting clans is only scams, the risk you get in merchanting is not taking advantage of the entire stockmarket, the risk with gwd and other ingame features were designed but jagex never intended for merchanting clans to go overboard with hording riskful/profitable items. It is also not the same type of risk/reward, it is an unfair risk/reward because you are taking advantage of somthing which is illegal.

{Also note that the economy and the items within the economy are so large and quantitative that it is relatively impossible for any merchanting clan to buy out an entire item. Instead, they simply attempt to offset the balance between supply and demand in order to raise prices.}
-I have proof to go against that; try selling adamant arrows (p++) on the ge for least, they won't sell EVER. This is how horded items NEVER sell/buy in the ge. (don't come back untill you try it)

Hordeditems: Smart people may be able to guess if an item is rising in price, but it only takes around 10 minutes to dump their items and 2 days to inform people to start buying, when they start buying, the price goes down as they buy, so overall they loose money. Also note that the scams don't give you profit becuase they trick you into
buying early and selling later after it crashes, so again, your proven wrong.

{For one, I can easily say that you, on the other side of the argument, lack factual proof as well making this entire ordeal a debate of opinions.}
-You cant say that when everyone who comes in here is debating against you, including the fmods  

{The next time you buy or sell an item on the GE, take note of the price. When you sell or buy the item back again, compare prices and see if you’ve made profit.
Generally, if you attempt to avoid loss, you might actually make profit}
-I did and guess what; i lost money! (talking about my general ge data overtime.)




random guy's post: you're ****** stupid, it is a mathematical impossibility for a merch clan to let everyone profit. If everyone in the clan dumps then who the **** will be buying the dumped goods?



((((sorry if this is a little big, i had alot to say to this guy)))))
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 06:07:25 PM by Lord Of Pain »
*Your tourtured bodies lay wastefully in the cabinate of caligari, and yours truly will haunt everyone in this channel for the sake of giving you pain. thus his spirit be mine; you shall all wither in pain by the clutches of your maker. all whom defy the pain must be punished; all whom can't endure the pain must suffer more; all who are weak and unworthy must be put to unrestfully sleep in their forsakened graves. all who defy shall be cursed by thy wicked hands of death. all who dont beleive will perish befor the flames of painful sins. those who are mortal surely cannot survive the wrath of the LORD OF PAIN. it is a given golden rule that you cannot defeat the power of pain; you cannot even dream of having that much power.Im getting hungary for thanks giving. Well im getting Austria for halloween. Would you settle for turkey? Naw im haveing newzealand.

Offline Hidiot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
    • http://
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2010, 02:06:25 AM »
The world would be a happier place if some people ceased to exist. That includes people that will engage in such silly arguments revolving around a multi-player online game.

People should see the stock markets and the other economical stuff of real life. They may be given living rights if they realize how badly their lives are being influenced by that and how much trickery a good number of people from the business world will try to employ. Compared to that, game politics are just a distraction.

So, what I'm basically saying is... stop caring about that stupid thing.


I'd have been more helpful if I'd have taken the time to read everything, but my brain was slowly preparing to implode ever since I understood the subject.
"Nothing from nowhere, I'm no one at all"

Offline CK9

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6257
    • http://www.outpost2.net/~ck9
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2010, 09:20:02 AM »
"...radiate recognize one silent call, as we all form one dark flame..."

er sorry, got distracted by Hidiot's signature


fact is fact: price manipulation clans violate the rules set in place by JaGex and therefore should be obliterated.  However, true merchant clans do not and just need to stop spam-advertising at the grand exchange.

true merchant clans:
1) do not attempt to manipulate item prices
2) are formed so that merchants can give eachother tips
3) provide a sub-community in the game a way to communicate

scam clans:
1) attempt to manipulate item prices
2) are formed as pyrimid schemes to increase the wealth of the few
3) provide a means that will riven the game community of rs to an unrepairable state


And hidiot, runescape is a useful tool for learning the basics of the real world stock market.  It is a fairly safe environment in which you can learn  to read the rise and fall better.  If you fail to read it right in runescape, you may lose up to a few million gp at a time, but you can easily make that back.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 09:20:22 AM by CK9 »
CK9 in outpost
Iamck in runescape (yes, I still play...sometimes...)
srentiln in minecraft (I like legos, and I like computer games...it was only a matter of time...) and youtube...
xdarkinsidex on deviantart

yup, I have too many screen names

Offline Hidiot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
    • http://
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 10:14:39 AM »
Ok, if you say so, CK9. But I still offer more respect to those who can understand the real world's fluctuations over those who can only do that in a game.

Also, what kind of merchant doesn't try to influence prices to his/her own benefit?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 10:14:57 AM by Hidiot »
"Nothing from nowhere, I'm no one at all"

Offline CK9

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6257
    • http://www.outpost2.net/~ck9
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2010, 10:22:13 AM »
In runesape, the term merchant is used to describe a person who buys an item at the current market value in the hopes that the market will bring the value higher so they can sell it at a profit.  These players do not attempt to manipulate the value of the items that they trade in, but instead use the natural market flow.
CK9 in outpost
Iamck in runescape (yes, I still play...sometimes...)
srentiln in minecraft (I like legos, and I like computer games...it was only a matter of time...) and youtube...
xdarkinsidex on deviantart

yup, I have too many screen names

Offline Lord Of Pain

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • http://
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 01:37:52 PM »
welp this topic has faded, let's lock this one?
*Your tourtured bodies lay wastefully in the cabinate of caligari, and yours truly will haunt everyone in this channel for the sake of giving you pain. thus his spirit be mine; you shall all wither in pain by the clutches of your maker. all whom defy the pain must be punished; all whom can't endure the pain must suffer more; all who are weak and unworthy must be put to unrestfully sleep in their forsakened graves. all who defy shall be cursed by thy wicked hands of death. all who dont beleive will perish befor the flames of painful sins. those who are mortal surely cannot survive the wrath of the LORD OF PAIN. it is a given golden rule that you cannot defeat the power of pain; you cannot even dream of having that much power.Im getting hungary for thanks giving. Well im getting Austria for halloween. Would you settle for turkey? Naw im haveing newzealand.

Offline Mez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 670
    • http://
Need Feedback And Opinions
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2010, 04:02:14 AM »
Locked.  As requested by the original poster