Outpost Universe Forums
Off Topic => General Interest => Debate => Topic started by: CK9 on May 26, 2004, 12:27:00 AM
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Now before you guys reply, keep in mind that I'm not targeting anyone, just pointing out an observation I personally have made. Now:
Now, in the bible it says that The Morning Star (or is it Mourning?) challenged God because he wanted the divine power. By turning him into a demond and having him in control of Hell, in a way Gaod made him a god. Before you respond, take this into account:
a god is a figure that is worshiped (even Set was worshoped in Ancient Egypt, as is the devil)
a god is not restricted to being *good* (look to Loki, Set, Anubis (he could be nice, but he could also be evil))
a god has some powers over something
The only religion that I know of that can be said to be truely a 1 god religion (though I don't know much about it) is judism. They do not believe in Hell, thus how can there be a devil to them?
anyone else see the posibility, or is it restricted to those who do not associate with a religion?
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There is only 1 god.
Isa 43:10 You are My witnesses, says Jehovah, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me.
Isa 41:4 Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.
Need I qoute more?
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There is only 1 god in Christianity.
When the word "God" is used, that means something you worship. The devil/satan is just a power against God, its not like considered to be a god or anything, its not worshipped in any way.
Also, satan wasn't put in his place by God, he was originally an angel that decided to rebel and run his own "thing".
The 'Star' you are referring to I can't recall from anywhere in the Bible.
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well i referr 2 where it was Leviathan in the Bible
:yawn:
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Lucefer was the Morning Star
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Actually, judaism does believe that there is a devil.
Matthew 12:24 - But when the Pharisees heard it they said, "It is only by Be-el'zebul (Satan, devil, etc.), the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Psalms 104:26 - There go the ships, and Leviathan which thou didst form to sport in it. (lol)
Lucifer thought himself to be greater than God, so he was cast out of heaven along with all his supporters (Deamons) and given control of the earth until Judgement day when he will be destroyed.
The Bible also reffers to false gods, and when worshipped, Satan could fall into that category.
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Yeah, but satan isn't like something to be worshiped as part of Christianity (its not like a necessary part of the religion - like you should know what it is, but you don't want to worship it or anything)
You believe it exists. You don't believe that it can do anything usefull for you.
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I beleive the devil exists, but as for worshiping him, that is something I will never do, as he is the worst thing in the world. For crying out loud, he is one of the causes of Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the garden of eden.
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now that one isn't correct, it was the snake
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The serpent is one of many names given to the Devil.
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and then there was Cain...
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The serpent is one of many names given to the Devil.
Then how are you supposed to know when someone is talking about him when he has 81273159801258 names?
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now that one isn't correct, it was the snake
You musta fell asleep during CCD, or not even went. In Genesis it says the SERPENT that tempted Adam and Eve was possed by Satan, the Fallen Angel that challenged God. So God punished the SERPENT by taking away it's legs, and making it crawl around on it's belly for the rest of it's existence. And as for him having 81273159801258 names. Well when you hear the bible talk about evil, or hate, or anything else bad like that you can figure it's Satan. Just so you know he also gos by Lucifer, Morning Star, Bulzeeb, Leviathian, and that's all I can think of right now. And for anyone who dosen't know, the Anti-Christ isn't Satan, the Anti-Christ will be Satan's human incarnate during Judgement Day, and it won't really be one day.
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You musta fell asleep during ANY sort of religion talk that anyone has had with you. The devil/satan/whateveryoucallhim can take any form he chooses. That's how the devil tempts you. When one of your friends says,"Hey, Let's go smoke a joint", That's not him truley saying that with all of his heart, he/she has been affected by satan, and thus tempted. Temtation is a widespread disease that we, as Christains, are meant, by using the power of Jesus Christ our saviour, to completly destroy in the end times. We are living in the end times today. Can't you see that our world is falling? You must realize that bad things are happening, or you really are blind.
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The world falling...
It can only get better :P
Oil will start to end in around 25 years according to some, some say 50 but when it occurs there will be milder chaos, but out of chaos order is born.
Space exploration is on the doorstep, medical breakthroughs are made faster then ever before. Computers are also advancing exponentially.
Old laws are crumbling and the society is changing to accomodate the new world. (refers to equality etc etc)
People believed the world would end in 2000 :heh:
Genetic modification and gene altering treatments are also on the rise, nanomechanics also. Fusion power has also had great progress in the last couple of years.
I cant wait B)
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I never was listening to the ONE religious thing I was eing told :P
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lol, CK, read the book of genisis in the bible and you will learn about the adam & eve story. Z, i'm thinking that computers will soon be so advanced that AI will be a breakthrough that ends our rule of the earth (At least in superior race living on it)
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no thank you, I don't need any help falling asleep right now :P
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Actually, some of the things in the bible are interesting and fun to read, like Joseph and the dreamcoat.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
sorry, but I'm more of a spiritualist than a biblicalist (is that even a word?)
(definition of spiritualist might be different for you guys...)
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hmm, your almost hopeless, i don't want to open my biblesoftware again tonight as i tried to set someone right in YIM
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no, I'm just a heritic :P
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you lucked out
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heritic: (n.) One who goes against a comon religious belief
yep
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lol, CK, read the book of genisis in the bible and you will learn about the adam & eve story. Z, i'm thinking that computers will soon be so advanced that AI will be a breakthrough that ends our rule of the earth (At least in superior race living on it)
It will be a long long time before we figure out to do something like that.
The key to artificial intelligence propably exists within us, so until we solve the secrets of the human brain AI's are pretty much out of the question.
As for computers taking over the world, who is to say it is necessarily a bad thing. It could be the next step of evolution.
And then you wonder, why would a computer necessarily be evil.
Has the matrix had a bad effect on people :heh:
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Actually, judaism does believe that there is a devil.
Matthew 12:24 - But when the Pharisees heard it they said, "It is only by Be-el'zebul (Satan, devil, etc.), the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."
Psalms 104:26 - There go the ships, and Leviathan which thou didst form to sport in it. (lol)
Lucifer thought himself to be greater than God, so he was cast out of heaven along with all his supporters (Deamons) and given control of the earth until Judgement day when he will be destroyed.
The Bible also reffers to false gods, and when worshipped, Satan could fall into that category.
Ummm.....correct me if I'm wrong, but he did not rebel because he thought he was better or stronger or anything else against God, he did so because of Man. He was the first angel and God had a perfect love for him, but once God created man God loved man above all else. Lucifer was jealous and so he rebeled and well you know the rest. Then Gabriel came up and took his place as God's right-hand-man (so to speak). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Actually, some of the things in the bible are interesting and fun to read, like Joseph and the dreamcoat.
Same with reading passages about God's evil doings, many quoted here (http://www.noreligion.ca/readEssay.php?eid=1#part3). :P
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yay, evil doings by what is supposed to be good :P
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God is a figment of someone's imagination that has been continued over ther years.
It would be like someone worshiping the Nephilim...
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To answer Zeus' question:
Isaiah 14: 12-14
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [3]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
Same with reading passages about God's evil doings, many quoted here.
Actually, he doesn't list one evil doing that God 'supposedly' did. And judging from his wording, he's as much a bigot as he claimes Christians are.
God is a figment of someone's imagination that has been continued over ther years.
It would be like someone worshiping the Nephilim...
I guess past-lives are also a figment of someone's imagination also then.
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If you want to believe that, go ahead, no one's stopping you. You haven't 'felt' the proof I have (weird sensation that I get from different things. It is different for memories and creations of my mind). I choose to believe that there isn't a god and that worshiping him is like worshoping the nephilim. Also, If you read those sections, you'd find yourself wrong, phantom (yeah, I followed along)
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That site is so wrong I'm laughing at it right now.
First of all, most of the references are taken from books like Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, which don't really apply much anymore. (The new testament is accepted instead)
Also, he is interpreting the Bible literally. It isn't meant to be interpreted literally. The writing is extremely biased, as well. He's not quoting from facts, he's quoting from opinion.
He could also be getting it from a strange or incorrect translation, or using a different language translation where certain words can have multiple meanings.... (come to think of it.... he doesn't say what translation was used....)
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huh, Hacker just said the exact opposite of phantom (see, Phantom, there is more than one way to interpret it :P)
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Question: Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers are "holy" books as well right. How can you just throw them away? Were they "incorrect" or did god change his opinion on certain things?
How far can one religion "adapt"/change before it turns into something else?
Perhaps someone will publish the new "new testament" will you accept that as "true" and throw away the old one.
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There is no proof of God because if there was, then it wouldn't be called faith, or belief. God wants you to believe in him and have faith that he exist. If there was proof thrown all over the place, then no one would have faith, they would just be worshiping because they had to.
Without proof you have faith, Without faith you have nothing to live for.
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huh, Hacker just said the exact opposite of phantom (see, Phantom, there is more than one way to interpret it :P)
You can interpret it any number of ways. In fact you can interpret virtually anything any number of ways. (this is the reason for different types of churches, eg lutheran, baptist, etc because they don't agree on the interpretation)
However, there is only one correct way to interpret most things including the Bible.
(Use a stoplight for example: The correct way to interpret the red light is 'stop'. The incorrect ways are 'use caution' or 'go').
Same with the Bible. Different concepts in the Bible can be interpreted many ways, but there is only one correct way to interpret them.
Zircon: the "opinion" was changed because of Jesus dying to save everyone from their sins. No longer was it necessary to make burnt offerings, etc to receive atonement for sins. (Failure to do this = go to hell when you die) Jesus "paid" for all this with his blood, so all you have to do to avoid hell is be accepting of Him. This made Exodus, Leviticus, etc obsolete.
This is the basis for all of Christianity.
Defending my position against that site, the reason God made all these rules was to not protect us from the rule itself, but the implications it has.
(For example= common one is "do not lust". Implication = lust to porn, affairs, etc (which destroys marriages as we probably all know).)
Regarding faith, we all have to put faith in something EVERY DAY. for example, you put faith in a car's brakes. (You hope they will slow down and stop the car. of course some of our cars' brakes don't work very well :heh: )
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Regarding faith, we all have to put faith in something EVERY DAY. for example, you put faith in a car's brakes. (You hope they will slow down and stop the car. of course some of our cars' brakes don't work very well )
Hacker, that isn't the same type of faith. With brakes, you have proof/evidence that they will work. They have worked thousands of times growing up riding in a car with your parents or riding the school bus, so you have some proof that brakes work, you just put faith in them not to go out. Faith in the sense of Christ means that you put faith into something that there is no proof/evidence of. You have never seen a mountain that has "God inc." on the side or anything, so you just have to believe that he is there.
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Zues, just because something is known to be true doesn't mean you have to like it. If there were proof of a god, yeah I'd accept that he existed, but I still wouldn't worship him. The most useful tool given to humans is the power of choice.
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That's correct. I'm not trying to make anyone believe, I'm just explaining faith and why people believe to the best of my ability.
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okay, here's one:
it is known to scientists that, although they are supposed to work, sometimes an anti-venom can fail. Now, many people 'know' that an anti-venom will save them if it is needed, but, seeing as it doesn't always work, it is more of a faith that it will save them.
BTW, did you know you an only take the anti-venom for a black-widow spider once? If you take it twice, it will kill you.
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personally there is more proof that God exists than the fact that i am sitting at my computer typing this. By having faith in God and Christ i have been blessed more times than i can imagine. If anyone believes that there is not a higher power in control of all things than they should try to create something very complex randomly (like life was according to evolution) common examples of creating things randomly are to take a piece of paper and throw a handful of sand at it, repeat as needed until you have some pre determined composition like the US declaration of independence. another example is to take a watch or (computer part) crush it with a hammer till it is in many small pieces, now take the pieces and place them into a bag and shake, repeat until you get a working watch(or said computer part)
If anybody has questions about christianity ow wants advice plz contact me
AIM or email will work best
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Wow, its been awile...
huh, Hacker just said the exact opposite of phantom (see, Phantom, there is more than one way to interpret it )
You can interpret it any number of ways. In fact you can interpret virtually anything any number of ways. (this is the reason for different types of churches, eg lutheran, baptist, etc because they don't agree on the interpretation)
First of all, yes, different interpretations of the bible spawn different sects of Christianity such as catholisism and protestantism.
I believe that the bible makes it very clear in reference to literal interpretations. It clearly points out when an analogy is being used, and/or a parable. The ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek that the bible was written in used extremely specific termanology that could not be interpreted more than one way.
Defending my position against that site, the reason God made all these rules was to not protect us from the rule itself, but the implications it has.
(For example= common one is "do not lust". Implication = lust to porn, affairs, etc (which destroys marriages as we probably all know).)
Regarding faith, we all have to put faith in something EVERY DAY. for example, you put faith in a car's brakes. (You hope they will slow down and stop the car. of course some of our cars' brakes don't work very well )
The commandments in the Old Testament were given to the world as proof that they could not keep them on their own strength. The New Testament, mainly the gosples (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) told of how God fullfilled the commandments of the Old Testament by the Death and Resurrection of his Son Jesus, the Christ.
Most of the Old testament was also the telling of how God set apart the nation of Israel to be a light among nations, and to show the other nations what happens to those who trust in the Lord. The other people groups outright rejected God, even through seeing his power against them. Instead they constructed Idols, and attacked Israel, THAT is why they were utterly destroyed, because they thought they could conquer the Lord's chosen people.
Faith in God is different from faith in other things in these ways: Faith in worldly things is more the Assumption that they will work rather than the faith that they will work. For instance, I expect the microwave to work, I do not have faith that it will work.
Faith in God is not assuming there is a God, it is knowledge that there is a God, and Faith is believing in something that is not seen, felt, heard, etc.
Zues, just because something is known to be true doesn't mean you have to like it. If there were proof of a god, yeah I'd accept that he existed, but I still wouldn't worship him. The most useful tool given to humans is the power of choice.
Yes it is your choice, and I can guarentee that you will worship him one day whether you like it or not. Not my words but his.
Romans 13:11-13 - But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
I don't know from where you all come from, and I do not claim to be your judge, I only say what I know to be the truth. I know I will worship him all the days of my life, and will continue to do so before the throne of Christ.
The only promised reward given to Christians is of Eternal life in the worship of God. All will stand before him whether they are ready or not. But then again, its your choice.
Back to the issue of faith. Those who believe in Evolution have a greater challenge to have faith in. For if you can believe in something that has no proof to back it up, then in a sense it is no different then believing in God.
Oh man, it is good to be back.
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It's good to have ya' back. I forgot all about this debate... anyway, at first I was going to reply to "I only say what I know to be the truth" with you cannot say that is true, but then I thought of all the things I "know to be true" that others would disagree with and read on instead :heh:
"I can guarentee that you will worship him one day whether you like it or not."
in a way, worship is like hypnotism (read the explination before replying):
It all is based on what you wish to do. Those who ghave a strong will within them NOT to bve hypnotised will not be, no matter how hard the hypnotist tries. The best example to tie worship in with this is the early Christians (who I have a great deal of respect for for the same reason I use as the example). The Romans tried to make them worship the Roman gods whether they liked it or not, however, these people chose death rather than to give in on their faith. Those people are the ones from whom I got inspired to never give in on what is important. Anyway, b ack to the topic:
Let's get a definition of what a 'God' is. From Dictionary.com:
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed
let's see...the one known as "God" fits such a description....yet so does Satan (after his placement in Hell)....both are mentioned in the Christian holy books...got anything logical to say? Any specific passage that negates any part of the definition that would be applied to Satan?