Outpost Universe Forums
Off Topic => General Interest => Debate => Topic started by: Kiith Somtaaw on April 05, 2004, 01:24:23 PM
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Yeah Post here to Debate about War and Religion.
War and Religion Sucks.
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Religion is a vital part of our country. 86% of the coutry believe in a god of some sort. I believe in what I feel in my heart, not just what I can see.
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It's called faith, to believe what you cannot see.
There is no proof that God does not exist, and there is no proof for the arguments made against him. Such as the Big Bang, and Evolution.
Whether war is bad depends on the reasons for fighting
In many cases war is nessessary and in no case is it ever pointless.
But, as long as people continue to act upon selfish desires, such as revenge, or otherwize (Radicals as an example) there will always need to be a need to defend against them in wars, battles, skirmishes, etc.
Plus, as long as the mexican border stays open, terrorists will get in.
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Mexican border? Try the Canadian border. approximately 3000 border patroler's for approx 3000 miles of border. That is where they will come in. Or through the unpoliced great lakes.
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Well, the thing is that the travel commission isn't going to fingerprint and picture Canadian or Mexican visitors like they have been on European visitors.
Bad Idea.
Terrorists come through both mexico and canada.
The 9/11 terrorists came through mexico.
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I meant that it is easier to come through the top than from the bottom. Just because it is done one way once, doesn't mean that it won't be done differently the second time.
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Yah, but as of now, more people come in illegaly through mexico than through canada.
Oh, and I don't by that garbage about them coming here to work.
A survey of californian prisons show that 80% of inmates are illegals who have committed crimes other that illegal entry into the country.
However, I think that Canada is an equally great security risk, however, they are highly secure from people entering in from other countries into canada, where as Mexico is not.
It is harder for a terrorist to get into Canada than into Mexico.
But I think that we should close off those borders to ne1 that is not a U.S. citizen.
That is the only way to stop terrorrism other than destroying every arab nation in the world. Sad to say.
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Actually Canada doesn't do the greatest job protecting their border's compared to the U.S. since they haven't experienced what we have. And blocking out everyone but US citizens would go against what we stand for.
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Yes, it does go against what we stand for,
However, it is either us or them.
The process at least needs great reform, and we can't give amnesty to illegals, illegals should be imprisoned or exported.
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There should be a big wall around the US.
lol
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What we do is with illegal immigrants from Mexico is we send them back to Mexico where they get realeased right away and then a couple days later they're going back across the border. There needs to be a better way to do things.
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Exactly!
I say we invade mexico and make it a territory! :D
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Lol, then we would have to have the approval of Congress. The US can not acquire new property without the approval of Congress. Like how Puerto Rico wants to join the US, they have to get the approval of Congress first. IF we wanted to invade somewhere, then the President could do that, but to sieze it for ours, Congress would have to Okay it.
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Great, Make it so.
US Picking on a weaker country. lol
Great Fun!
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lol, yah, we need better lobbyists in the area of aquiring territory.
I am quoting a radio talk show host:
Borders, Language, Culture.
Can you guess who?
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Kiith, are there supposed to be picture's there?
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Pictures Where?
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lol, I think you are confused Zeus
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Great, Make it so.
US Picking on a weaker country. lol
Great Fun!
I thought that there were supposed to be picture's in between.
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I don't think, religion is a good reason for war or terrorists' attacks.
Thus I dislike the terrorists.
Another point is the war declared to the Islam by Bush who isn't much better. You cannot fight violence with violence. There will always be terrorists, bcz there will be ppl who are not content with the political system. And - what ever you do - they will always find a way to attack their adversary.
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There is no other way to fight terrorists than with violence.
These terrorrists are willing to kill themselves in order to kill civilians. The other option is to have them destroy us with no retaliation.
Yes terrorrist will always be around, but the worst thing anyone can do is to do nothing.
Terrorrist will attack and keep attacking until they get there goal accomplished, which right now is to kill Christians and Jews (Westerners)
And they will not stop untill we are all dead or go over to there side.
So we are given three choices,to surrender, to fight, or to die.
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I don't think, religion is a good reason for war or terrorists' attacks.
Thus I dislike the terrorists.
Another point is the war declared to the Islam by Bush who isn't much better. You cannot fight violence with violence. There will always be terrorists, bcz there will be ppl who are not content with the political system. And - what ever you do - they will always find a way to attack their adversary.
Bush didn't declare war on Islam, he declared war on the terrorists and the people and countries that harbor them, which I think were his exact words. The terrorists are extremists that don't correctly understand their relegion.
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He actually said that we will make no distinction between the terrorists and the countries that harbor them, which basically means what you said Luweeg. I agree, the worst thing that we can do is to do nothing. Has anything happened here since, no. They see that by attacking us they lost 2 of their Islamic countries. We have to strike back at least 10 fold over what they do or they'll keep doing it. Look at Spain, they got attacked and all they did was pull their people out of Iraq, which is what the terrorist want, so they'll probably get attacked again if something arises with them. They showed the terrorist that they are weak. We showed that we are not weak.
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Right on!
Any country that harbors terrorists should be punished in the same way.
I guess they don't take us seriously cause of what Bill Clinton did.
Well, now they should, as Saddam is in jail. lol.
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They shoulda waited till we had a Democrate in office. Then they wouldn't have lost both of those countries. We need a Republican in the office for our own defense. John Kerry wants us out of there, so we can't have him in there (The oval office). We need Bush back in if we are going to stay safe.
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That's for sure.
I mean Bill Clinton didn't do anything for the USS Cole, or the embasy bombings.
And not to mention he had us pull out of somalia.
Yep, the Demo's have proven themselves wishy-washy, indecisive, and cowardly.
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Bill Clinton did something, he through cruise missles from a navy ship at Kosovo. And then told CNN that we were out of cruise missles. What a freakin idiot. Just standing back and doing that made us look like cowards to everyone else. He is one of the worst Presidents we've had, but all he ever gets is praises from the media. He didn't do good for the economy, he was living off what Reagan and Bush Sr. did, so I agree with you Phantom and I say that we have to keep Bush this election since terrorism is still very high and still needs to be dealt with.
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I just cant imagine what it would be like now if Wats his face had one instead of bush back in 2000. I seriously can't think of his name right now. My mind is blank. lol.
But neways, Spain made an extremely huge mistake by electing a socialist that is against fighting terrorism.
And those deaths in Mogadishu (Did I spell that right?), I think it was Michale Savage of the Savage Nation who said that we should firebomb the whole city after a 72 hr notice, destroy all traces of that city, and spread salt on the ground.
And then have it taken off of all maps.
Although it may not be the best idea, he did at least give the 72hr notice.
Do you people now see that terrorrists will kill anyone that does not support them?
The four killed were security contractors, civilians, going over there to help the people.
Oh, and to let everyone know, the troops over there say that that city is different from the rest of Iraq.
Oh, and if the Terrorists use the Crusades as an excuse, then Spain is not exempt (They chased the moors out).
Oh and for the rest of the Muslim community, I need proof from them that they do not support these actions. Such as a Pro-American rally or something.
Back in WW2, the Japanese created there own division in the U.S. Military to prove their loyalty to the U.S.
I think that the Muslims should do something similar. No one but Muslims themselves can prove to Americans that they are loyal.
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It was Al Gore that ran against Bush in 2000 and you do bring up some very good points in your little speech there.
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Well Islam is a violent religion.
Jihad means "holy war."
In the Que'ran (did I spell that right?) It refers to Jihad and bloodshed and murder etc.
And yes, if Al Gore won that would suck, because he's all lies - I saw on TV he said once, "I invented the Internet."
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op2hacker is right
In the koran it also says that if you cannot convert Jews and Christians, then you should kill them so that they cannot oppose you.
Thanks Zeus! For some reason I couldn't recall his name, like a brain fart or something. And I can't believe I just used the term Brain Fart. lol.
Neways, I just say what I know, and what I know are the facts, and to watch Fox News lol.
CNN: Troops are dying in the streets by the thousands!
Fox News: A U.S. Soldier was killed when his humvee was hit by an RPG.
It kindof is like that movie "The Running Man" with Arnold Schwartzenegger.
It's funny, he gets framed for firing on an un-armed group of protesters in Bakersfield and it's shown on CNN.
The big joke here is, when was there ever been an unarmed group of protesters in Bakersfield? lol.
Point: Democrats, Liberals, whatever you want to call them, have wacked out morals that are not part of the mainstreme, and when laws are made to uphold there views, it goes against the rights of the majority (Which is Insane)
So really, would you want a president who supports not the views of the Majority, but of the Minority?
Well, I wouldn't!
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I don't know if you spelled that right or not, but one of my cousin's is Islamic and I've inquired about his religion. The original was basically the old testament (spelling probs). But then it was twisted and screwed up to everyone elses likings.
Edit: And I've heard all about and seen him say that he invented the internet. He is just a lying sack of....poo poo.
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Well, muslims belive that the Jews skewed the Old Testament after the story of Abraham.
Muslims are said to be desendants of Abrahams other son Ishmael, while Jews are descendant from Issac.
Edit: Oh, and Al Gore did definately not invent the internet, I don't care how many shares of stock he bought. lol.
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But we are all descendant's of Noah. So we all come together in our family lines at one point. So why don't we just all hold hands and rejoice.....lol
Think about it, you are either married/dating/engaged/going to be with someone that is your relative if you go back far enough.
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Yah, that's true, however I don't think I could spend that much time looking up my family history, lol.
I barely found out who my Great Great Grandparents were.
Edit:
But anyways, Muslims are mad at Jews because the Jews are called the "Chosen People" in the old testiment.
And they are mad at the Christians for the crusades.
However, the Christians didn't fight in the crusades, criminals did. And the religion at the time called Christendom, was a highly perverted form of Christianity formed by the Church of England.
Hence, that perverted religion is what prompted the Pilgrims to come to the New World and create what would become the U.S.A.
In all, the Terrorists veiw the war against them as a Jihad, because it is a war that opposes their religious beliefs.
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My dad has traced at least one side all the way back to the early 1700's.
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Wow, thats cool.
Did you know that Malaria can be cured by eating hot red pepers from the Philippines?
My Grandpa in WW2 was a scout, and got lost, got Malaria, and was cured by a tribe of natives that fed him red pepers. lol.
I wish he got to keep his Thompson though so I could have it!
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Don't you think, it's strange, that mainly these countries have been attacked by terrorists, which fight against them?
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Yah, it seems that only the countries that have been attacked by terrorrists have been willing to fight it.
Such as Israel.
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It's kinda like an uncommon disease. Do you really care about it much if it hasn't infected you? But if it does, then you pay all your attention to it. The other nation's are just blind, like we were during WW2 before Japan attacked us. If we didn't join when we did, we'd all be speaking German right now.
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It's kinda like an uncommon disease. Do you really care about it much if it hasn't infected you? But if it does, then you pay all your attention to it. The other nation's are just blind, like we were during WW2 before Japan attacked us. If we didn't join when we did, we'd all be speaking German right now.
You misjudge the terrorsists, I believe. They will never be able to conquer a country. All they can do, are suicidal attacks, which in most cases don't kill many ppl. Of course it's not good, but what about illnesses like AIDS, which kill far more ppl?
In a few centuries or even earlier, everything won't however use anything, bcz. our environment will be so much polluted that no human being can't live anymore. And Bush does nothing against it.
Another point is, that you can't stop them, with just showing them how strong u are, bcz they think, THEY are stronger. The terrorists aren't liitle children who give up, if they can't achieve what they want.
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As for ZeusBD's example, that is about the only way to compare terrorrism to a disease. And that is a good point, we were not involved militarily in WW2 until Japan attacked. However we did support the Allies by supplying equipment, etc.
Yah, they could conquer a contry easily, look at Libya and Palestine, those are basicly terrorist contries where the extremest (if you could call them that) ideals run in the mainstream.
And in palestine, terrorrists kill 20-30 people with each of their attacks. Now add those all up since the time that Israel became a nation, and there you have it.
And look at the Madrid bombings, 200 people gone of the face of the earth.
Aids however, can be prevented through chastity among infected persons.
The point: Aids is preventable, Terrorrism can be to a point.
We already know that the terrorrists will stop at nothing, so we shouldn't stop at nothing.
And also, Terrorrism is a way of life, it is not a disease that can be cured. But it can be halted.
And the reason Spain isn't that keen on fighting terrorism is the fact that their leader is a Socialist. Socialist/Communists usually have a bad habit of being lenient on terrorists.
Oh, and to bring up a new point, the U.N. should be dissolved on the basis that it doesn't work. They can make all the standards they want, but if they won't uphold them then what is the point?
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Terrorism is in most cases a result of dissatisfaction. And there won't be satisfaction if you just conquer the country and try to prevent terrostic attacks (Iraq is the best example that it doesn't work!)
And how does Bush determine wether a country is terroristic or not?. The USA allie with everyone they need until they change their opinion and fight these countries.
And the Iraq had no weapons for mass destruction, thus it wasn't a danger, but Bush only conquered it to get the oil.
AIDS IS preventable, but it was only an example. There are many not preventable diseases which also kill many people, especially in Third World countries.
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Weapons of mass destruction do not pertain only two Nuclear and Biological.
Also, the U.N. agreement states that Iraq turn over all weapons information, not just pertaining to weapons of mass destruction.
Also, France is 67% muslim, and that is why they didn't support us, sad to say.
Besides, the other condition was that Iraq tell of all it's programs involving developing weapons of mass destruction.
And it was discovered that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction. This was in clear violation of the conditions set by the U.N. (not just the U.S.)
CNN Report:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. forces operating in the so-called Sunni Triangle -- the region of Iraq most loyal to captured former dictator Saddam Hussein -- found a significant weapons cache that included al Qaeda literature and videotapes, the U.S. military said Tuesday.
Weapons found in raid:
nearly 8,000 rounds of ammunition; 160 mortar rounds and six mortar tubes; 43 rocket-propelled grenade launchers and 79 rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs); and 19 AK-47 assault rifles, as well as dozens of other weapons.
The military also said a significant amount of C4 and TNT explosives material was found, as was material to make improvised explosive devices
To clue you all in, these explosives are the same used in the Spain train bombings which killed 200 people.
Note: All these weapons were undeclaired, and that is a direct violation of the U.N. ultimatum.
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38904000/jpg/_38904075_blister_agents_203.jpg)
The pic above is of Chemical bombs found in Iraq that have been dismantled by the U.S. since the invasion.
Oh and also remember that Weapons of Mass destruction could include two 747 planes. Does that ring a bell?
Oh, and by the way, 200,000 Iraqis were found burried in mass graves in Iraq.
How is what we are doing now any different from what Bill Clinton did in Kosovo?
No, the only reason people are mad at Bush is because he is Republican. They have no hard eveidence. Even that phony who testified on the 9/11 commision was proven a liar from his own Govenment records!
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So outsider, let me get this straight....you don't believe that anything should be done til we lose thousands of people in an attack on us (September 11th 2001)? We didn't just go in there for oil, and your blind to the facts if you think that. And just because we haven't found any WOMD in there yet, doesn't mean that they weren't sent to one of the neighboring countries before we attacked. You shouldn't look at just what the media tell's you, you should also use a little common sense and look at unbiased facts. You usually won't get those from the media, you have to make a little effort and look for them. What we did was right and I back my president 100%, now why don't you try backing your's.
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Pretty much everyone who is against us going against terrorrism will not change their minds until a nuclear bomb is dropped on a major metropolitan area.
Sad but true.
People want to fool themselves into thinking that if we do not take part in anything, then everything will be ok.
Tell that to the people at Pearl Harbor, or in the World Trade Center.
I think they would dissagree (If they were still alive.)
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And it was discovered that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction. This was in clear violation of the conditions set by the U.N. (not just the U.S.)
CNN Report:
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. forces operating in the so-called Sunni Triangle -- the region of Iraq most loyal to captured former dictator Saddam Hussein -- found a significant weapons cache that included al Qaeda literature and videotapes, the U.S. military said Tuesday.
Weapons found in raid:
nearly 8,000 rounds of ammunition; 160 mortar rounds and six mortar tubes; 43 rocket-propelled grenade launchers and 79 rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs); and 19 AK-47 assault rifles, as well as dozens of other weapons.
Maybe I'm wrong, but are these womd, which could be used to invade another country? I think, each country has the right to defend itself.
I know, what your answer on that will be, but as long as you can't proof anything you don't have the right to go into action.
btw: don't have all major countries defense systems against nuclear weapons?
And I don't have all my ideas from the media, jtlyk.
I'd have to insult too many people if I went further. But you should get to know some facts about how politics REALLY work.
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Don't you think, it's strange, that mainly these countries have been attacked by terrorists, which fight against them?
First of all, remember 9/11? The U.S. didn’t attack any terrorrists (Bill Clinton’s Fault) and we still got attacked. No, terrorists don’t need an excuse to attack people.
Maybe I'm wrong, but are these womd, which could be used to invade another country? I think, each country has the right to defend itself.
I know, what your answer on that will be, but as long as you can't proof anything you don't have the right to go into action.
btw: don't have all major countries defense systems against nuclear weapons?
And I don't have all my ideas from the media, jtlyk.
I'd have to insult too many people if I went further. But you should get to know some facts about how politics REALLY work.
Countries can defend themselves. However, Iraq was given an ultimatum to reveal ALL weapons, and ALL weapons programs, which they did not do either.
And, I know politics, trust me.
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However, Iraq was given an ultimatum to reveal ALL weapons, and ALL weapons programs, which they did not do either.
That doesn't give you the right to invade it.
And there are ppl who say, Bush himself would have planned the 9/11-attack... (its up to you, what you believe. I just mention)
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Well, it does give us the right to attack Iraq, since it was in the ultimatum that they agreed upon.
Secondly, If anyone truly believes that Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks, then they should seek psyciatric treatment. And I am serious on that.
There is no proof that Bush was behind anything in the 9/11 attacks, and the former security advisor who claimed so, was proven a liar by past records.
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Okay, if a nation is giving fund to terrorists.....Not showing us all of their weapons like was agreed....Was developing nuclear capabilities (They supposedly stopped after the first time we went there).....had a dictator who was torturing his citizen's.....and who made threat at us for years, why shouldn't we stop him? Besically what your saying is that he didn't have WOMD, but let me ask you this, even if he didn't, you want us to wait till he does? So that even more people die? I think that he already did but sent them across the border. But regardless of wether he did or didn't, he needed to be stopped. So there's a reason why we should invade if he didn't have them and a reason if he did (is that politics for ya?).
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That pretty much covers all the whole range Zeus. lol.
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It's one of my pricples, not to act until there is a prooven reason for doing so. What will you say, if someone prooves that you've been wrong?
I see your point, but would you also invade, lets say Italy, if they suddenly stopped giving away infomration about there weapons?
And I tell you, our sociaty is so manipulated, that you can believe only yourself.
All powerfull people (like Bush) try to manipulate the public opinion and for that purpose they hide facts which can harm their image.
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Well, Italy is a lot less likely than Iraq to invade another country (Like Iraq did in Kuait)
And you can't really blame Bush, its really the CIA's responsability (It was heavily reduced in power during the Clinton years).
Bush can't go himself into Iraq and look for WOMD's can he? I don't think so! lol.
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And you can't really blame Bush, its really the CIA's responsability (It was heavily reduced in power during the Clinton years).
Bush can't go himself into Iraq and look for WOMD's can he? I don't think so! lol.
Responsible is always the person or institution which is less likely to experience any consequnces.
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This one's to the War part:
Thanks to Zircon, I found people like me, and found this similar topic:
it's probably not just me but do you feel humans are....
2-26-04 9:56:20am draconite
...corrupting this planet?? (sorry, couldn't fit this on one topic line).
just that they say they wanna make things better but make things much worse. i hate violence and wars, i feel humans are immature going into war to kill others of their kind, why can't they just get along??
Re: it's probably not just me but do you feel humans are....
2-26-04 11:25:56am HauntingGhost
that is such a classical question, with an easy answer i've find out.
jealousy, greed, and the need for power, or sometimes the reason can be of good sort, like just defending from invaders that wish to take your land and if the remaining people of their civilization want to fight because of their freedom to life in peace and so on. It could be of course something else too, but these i'm thinking of mostly.
~HauntingGhost
Re: (x2) it's probably not just me but do you feel humans ar
2-26-04 1:31:16pm Shiari
and it's not just humans. Other species here wage wars, though not to the extent that
humans do. And I'm sure there's plenty of other planets with similar circumstances.
Also, another big factor is the fact that humans are so overcrowded. makes us more
territorial.
Re: it's probably not just me but do you feel humans are....
2-28-04 8:31:37am Chi Hurican
I definitely agree Draconite.
There are a couple questions about that that I cannot answer though. First, if we (as Dragons) had a choice to create our own society, would we be any different? Because of our civility, would we fall into the same constraints as humans do now, and believe that we do not have a choice in the matter but to keep doing the things that we are, trying to improve, yet corrupting things even further?
At the moment, we can say we do not have a choice, because we are bound by human law, natural selection of our societies govt, etc... which is true for some aspects. But we can always remove ourselves, live in the wild, eat of the wild, and use things like solar energy for heat and electricity. Essentially build a community of our own. But realistically, how reasonable is that? No access to the things that brought us together in the first place, etc...
There are just alot of things to think about regarding that question.
Mn'An'dzat kchren'rae hwiss thaa' seth:
Stihe he-stihe.
Stihu he-stihe.
Whrn'thae najh'stihehh.
Ousskh'thae najh'stiheh.
Mda't'dae bvh-sda't'dae mnek-e.
Rui'i'rae-sta haa'ae!
Ehh'ne lhhw'i'ae (What Dragons Say)
What it means
made me think
(BTW, here's the translation on the last one (javascript doesn't transfer)
What is, is
What was, is
Matter is an illusion
Meaning is an illusion
the Door opens bothe ways
Believe none of these!
)