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Projects & Development => GORF => Hall of Fame => Topic started by: Freeza-CII on April 28, 2007, 02:48:52 PM

Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on April 28, 2007, 02:48:52 PM
Ok So here is the Deal.  

Walking is another form of locamotion.  Legs instead of wheels.  This DOESNT make these units UBER they just walk.  They would all have the same properties of the wheel vehicles.  So they wouldnt be slower or faster and mantain that balance.  And they would also have simular turret set ups.  If your afraid people are only going to use that colony because they think the walker units are "Uber" then that is there problem as they would be balanced other wise.

Now I plan on making the 3 attack units and the other colony vehicles so there will be a whole Colony of walkers so every thing will click together nicely.  The names of the units I might leave up to other people maybe.

The Weapons I do put on the units are just to show where the weapons will be They may or may not be in the game i dont know dont b****.

This is like the MLAV only more extensive and more balanced.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: zanco on April 28, 2007, 04:12:49 PM
A colony whom units are "Ped-vehicle"? Not all by maybe parts of it. Intersting.
This might bring some kind of diversity in the game.

I can picture it instead of Lynx-Laser, we will have "Dodo-laser" or whichever biped animal you want to use.-- Just kidding but something of the sort.

The problem is to know if it will be more economical and/or feasible to build Multi-Ped vehicles instead of wheeled vehicles.

The discussion is opened and everyone is welcomed to take part in it.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on April 28, 2007, 04:55:29 PM
Well I Think if the vecs are made right they will work with legs.  Even the Convec will have legs its body style would vastly different.  And I think that with the Wheeled vecs the Looks of the vecs will tend to be simular.  Having the very differnt look will make for a interesting game.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: zanco on April 28, 2007, 06:48:19 PM
I understand what you mean. And this is quite an original idea. I just want you to come up with a believable reason as to why they will use Biped units instead of wheeled units.
Remember they already have the technology of the wheeled unit giving that they also come from Earth.  
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on April 28, 2007, 09:18:30 PM
Yes Wheeled units from earth but Wheeled units may not work so well on a different planet or in the particular area that this colony happen to be.  Plus a Leg can walk over some thing rather then just trying to roll over it.  Some one might bring up the fact that a Standing unit will be more likely to fall over.  Well for the sake of game play i would say no it wouldnt it would be treated as a lynx and such.  Plus we have legged robots right now that wont fall over even if there kicked.  I know it doesnt seem likely that they would use Legged robots instead of wheeled ones  But the terrain of the planet might call for such a thing Or perhaps the terrain of there landing zone was so hard on the wheeled units they had some thing new had to be delevoped or brought back to life from the Earth Database.  Legged prototypes have been around for a long time.  

With a 3d environment it does present the challenge of having the units walk right on a slant.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on April 29, 2007, 03:46:00 AM
Ok screen shot time.

Scout
(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Biped-Scout.jpg)

Light Unit
(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Biped-Light.jpg)

Medium Unit
(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Biped-Med.jpg)

Heavy unit
(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Biped-Heavy.jpg)

Convec
(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Multiped-Convec.jpg)
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: dm-horus on April 29, 2007, 03:59:18 AM
I have to say that these units looks extremely delicate. I would have to suggest that the colony that uses these would have to go with the whole mentality of "weak but cheap" and make up for their delicate construction in numbers. something that is delicately balanced on two legs would not be able to field a very large weapon as simply tracking a target would set it off balance. Also these need to look beefier. I see no room in the legs for whatever mechanism propels them. I also personally think more than 2 legs looks a bit more realistic unless the 2 legged units are very beefy and close to the ground. After all, the terrain they are on is very rugged and that was the purpose for the spiders with their 4, 6 or 8 legs or whatever theyve got.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on April 29, 2007, 04:10:55 AM
Yes and There are turrets that fire lasers and lightning.  You cant expect every thing to be total realism.  Plus these legs are not run by Hydraulic pneumatic or Electric rams.  They are powered by Survos. which take up less space and can fit on the inside of the joints.  And being powered by a cool fusion plant there isnt a shortage in power needed to move these units.  And i am trying my best not to mimic Mechwarrior or Earth Seige or mimicing units like spiders.

Forwarning the Next set of units will look a bit more unusual in appearance but its only because of there function.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: dm-horus on April 29, 2007, 08:44:09 AM
Yeah actually the design of these is in close keeping with the style of op2. if they were beefier theyd look a little too mechwarrior-like and i see youre avoiding that. Actually, these look alot like something you would see in Total Annihilation.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: zanco on April 29, 2007, 02:21:50 PM
Quote
Yes and There are turrets that fire lasers and lightning. You cant expect every thing to be total realism

Very well put. I think some time we care too much about realism.

You did a good job illustrating your idea. Those units look extremely good given that they were made in a short amount of time. Kudos. The convec looks a lot like Viking 1
(http://skyrocket.de/space/img_sat/viking_lander__1.jpg)




I guess we could consider Maesis having those Legged Units. And an argument might be (as DM-Horus put it) that the terrain was extremely "bumpy" thus making it difficult for wheeled vehicles to drive around. But again, I don't think that New Terra ewas a smooth planet either and wheeled vehicles did get by. Even on a rough terrain, wheeled vehicles might work:
Here is a "palpable" example.
(http://marsrovers.nasa.gov/mission/images/rover1_detail_500.jpg)

We could work a little bit on the mechanism and improve it. And we could also work on the design; to me those look too much like Star Wars. Maybe som more opi-ish?
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on April 29, 2007, 03:49:13 PM
Legs are legs normal, reversed, or double reversed.  if i put Normal straight legs on them it makes them look very skinny and top heavy.  double reverse legs just look ODD.  and the Reversed legs keep them from looking to tall and top heavy.

Yes this is the problem.  The other colonies have used wheeled vecs and that is what every one is used to.  And since they already could drive over already bad terrain it doesnt make sence to have legs and just stick with wheels.

But lets say the colony landing in a spot that was like the badlands of the planet with the kinda terrain that would destroy wheels.  Here is where the legs would work.  Because your not going to send a bulldozer out to flaten every thing so you can have a patrol or exploration.

The Mars rover ya that is a very small vec and going over the rocks is easy due to its suspention but that kind of suspention is not a good idea to have on a combat vec as it would pretty much get blown off.  That is if we wanted to be completely anal about realism in the game.  For the sake of game play it doesnt make a bit of damn difference if there is legs or wheels because the terrain will never have that much detail.  But with the real factor legs are a possiblity.  Remember op2 uses science and fact.  OP3 must as well or its just not going to work.  

And just because star wars ATAT walker had reverse knees doesnt make it the same :P  and there wont be any giant cat looking one either.  And I think my convec more resembles a frog with a folding crane on its back.

You must remember that theses are just basicly rough drafts of the walkers i envision.  Right now there to blocky and sharp i rather have rounded corners and such.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Betaray on April 29, 2007, 05:17:09 PM
how about a hybrid of wheels and legs

such as shown here http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=61...ng+robot+hybrid (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6123206611683952084&q=walking+robot+hybrid)
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 01, 2007, 05:55:55 AM
I like legged units. Not just because they look nice but also because they can manuver terrain easier and are very adaptable to thier environment. For instance, on earth a standard tank wouldn't be able to cross through a river that is 10 feet deep where as a legged unit such as this could walk through it whether the river bed was flat or not. The consideration that when it is tracking a target is easily recktified as you can have a stabilization system that would use a form of liquid balast to put weight in the sections of the chassis that are lighter and would cause the vehicle to tip. For instance, if the unit is turning it's torso to a 90 degree angle the balast would move to the back and center of the torso.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 02, 2007, 03:27:19 AM
i dont think there are going to be to many rivers.  of water any way.

OK Like i said those pic above are basicly rough drafts.  There too squar and sharp.

(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/Biped-Heavy-hiclass.jpg)

There is something more to what i see.  Those guns are just fancy placement to display where the guns go.


 
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 02, 2007, 08:19:23 AM
The guns look like PBW (particle beam weapons)! Man you are a good designer. Wish I could do that....
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: zanco on May 02, 2007, 02:13:08 PM
Freeza-CII I am impressed with your design. Just good work. Wonderful work!
Kudos.

Edit: Also I would like to see you rendition of non-military units.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 03, 2007, 12:45:53 AM
Ok now this one is a bit unusual and it needs a bit of scaling.

(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Biped-Miner-undeployed.jpg)

(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Biped-Miner-deployed.jpg)

And then there is the surveyor

(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Biped-Surveyor.jpg)

That thing on the under bellie is the Bore laser and Mass spectrameter.

(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Multiped-Cargo.jpg)

A small sence of scale maybe not accurate but close enough to give the idea.  Some things need readjusting just because i want them right.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 03, 2007, 08:51:51 AM
Holy Short! Sweet!
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 03, 2007, 09:43:42 PM
Ok a revision of the Miner because it was just to damn small to beable to fill a cargo walker.

Undeployed
(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Multiped-Miner.jpg)

Deployed with a Cargo Walker to show the grand size.
(http://www.freeza.outpostuniverse.net/images/model-shots/Multiped-Miner-Deployed.jpg)

That Tube is retractable.  So the walker can stand up and move.
 
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: zanco on May 03, 2007, 09:56:55 PM
Very Interesting. I see that you are putting a lot of thoughts into it.
Don't build a whole colony by yourself. :) But now I see what you were referring to, and this is doable AND believable. ( *glances at Combine Cruiser ).

Now  how many polys did you use for this one?
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 03, 2007, 10:03:15 PM
1876
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Stormy on May 03, 2007, 10:11:53 PM
mmm.... I think I'm liking htis idea more and more :)

The arguement about the terrain being rough is a very good one...

and Freeza, that kind of design for the robo-miner is extremely helpful; we could base the miners for the other colonies off of that (except with wheels instead  of legs)
I know it's obvious that the parts would have to extend... but OP2's screenshots aren't very descriptive no?  :heh:

:)
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 03, 2007, 10:37:07 PM
Ya Every thing needs the right scale instead of all the same size.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 04, 2007, 08:27:18 AM
The idea of the terrain being rough for vehicles is good....... Perhaps this colony could have landed in a geologically active spot. The grounds in their landing spot is so fragile that vehicle literally would get stuck in the mud or whatever it is.....

Excellent Freeza-CII, The idea is Freezing together already.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Tramis on May 04, 2007, 10:12:30 AM
I like the idea of a legged robo-miner, but I don't think the entire colony would use walkers - they wouldn't be terribly fast.  Spiders are fast because they have a very light load to carry - foil armor, tiny chassis etc.  larger walkers with much larger weight to carry would be extremely slow in comparison to the other colonies' equivalent vehicles.

Also, you have to consider that if the ground is too rocky for Maesis to use wheeled vehicles, then it's too rocky for Genesis to do so either, and having 2 of the 3 colonies using walkers almost exclusively, would get un-Outpost-ish in a hurry.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 04, 2007, 10:33:30 AM
Hey Tramis I thought that Genisis was the title of the game (Outpost 3 Genisis)
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 04, 2007, 11:53:05 AM
Now your just thinking to much earth.

Remember they have a Cool fusion reactor or 2 to draw power from and move the damn things.  There not going to be bounding like deer in a medow but they will be fast enough.  Plus a colony that has legged vec for the majority a wheel vec would look very out of place.

As for the ground There were 2 explainations for the need for walker style units.

1.  The planet is too rough and completely destroys wheels and tracks.  
OR
2.  The particular place where they landed was to hard on the wheels.

# 2 is the most likely.  Why would the land there.  Well from orbit it may have appeared better then it actually is.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 07, 2007, 08:14:19 AM
Da....... Like they landed in a previously volcanic area which formed stalagmites.. Or something close to it.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 10, 2007, 08:51:49 AM
Idea for names:
Basic MLAV: Black Bear
Standard MLAV: Brown Bear
Advanced MLAV: Grizzly Bear
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 10, 2007, 06:58:09 PM
i dont much like those names.  Being that they all have BEAR in them and there 2 words.

Ill think of some names later.  But keep trying maybe youll hit the mark.

And these arent MLAVs.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on May 11, 2007, 12:39:19 PM
Da............ I'm just using MLAV to mark that I'm naming the combat walkers....
 
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on May 11, 2007, 01:56:00 PM
Given the Attack units have a reverse knee or as i call them (Chicken Walkers).  The Animal there named after would have simular properties.  

i would avoid using names like T-Rex and such.

Now I have the rest of the vecs done.  I would like to state there isnt a bull dozer tho.  Why because they wouldnt need it with all the walker units.  Ill post the pics at some point.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: zanco on May 16, 2007, 08:59:41 PM
Alright, Freeza-CII idea seems descent.
We will run a poll to really know those type of units should be used in OP3 (for the soon to be renamed Maesis colony). Another alternative would be having the opportunity along the tech tree to choose between legged vehicles and wheeled vehicles.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: RockNavator on June 03, 2007, 01:24:48 PM
Sorry I am late getting in on this thread. It has been too long since I got on the forums. I just had a quick thought regarding the reason they landed in such a crappy place. It could be very similiar to armegedon where they landed amongst the barbs. I only forget the reason why they landed short of their desired location.

I forgot to say that the reason that the developed the legged vechs was because of a crappy lz. But later on they legs wouldn't make them uber because the general topology of the planet doesn't favor either legs or wheels. Therefore neither would have an un fair advantage. only enough advantage to balance the disadvantage of their starting points. This would call for a mixture of legged and other locomotion as once they are out of the lz and the terrain has changed they could easily begin to use wheels/tracks where it was more beneficial(i.e. cargo trucks, tigers)

As a side note: on my way to work i saw a vech somewhat like a cherry picker that had six legs. looked almost like a spider. That goes to prove that in a world where wheels seem to make the best sense, there are practicle applications of legged vechs. This cherry picker was being used to walk between buildings and the court yard while working on 2/3 story balcony railings that needed to be welded.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: chicer_mister on July 23, 2007, 02:41:55 PM
where's the poll gonna be
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Arklon on July 23, 2007, 02:51:21 PM
Even if they did land in the badlands, why couldn't they just move to a place with more tame terrain, which would increase all-around efficiency of the colony? Or, if the whole planet was badlands, why couldn't they just level the damn terrain? They'd probably make legged units for exploration outside of the main colony area, but everything being legged sounds a bit inefficient. Colony/base units in OP2 already seem too slow, particularly the Earthworker. I don't like this idea of establishing certain conditions and ignoring some simpler alternatives to attempt to give a colony certain units.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Combine Crusier on July 27, 2007, 12:20:16 PM
Think of this Arklon, the Maesis land in a crater that has a relativly flat environment in the middle but around the edges of this OLD crater the terrain is so hostile that it can't even be buldozed, OP 1.5 had Impassable terrain which you could be surrounded by but in that game there were no legged units, also if you're going make seperate outposts, like a mining colony, you'd need legged construction vehicles to leave the main colony.

My opinion / idea of a senario where legged units would be vital.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Marukasu on November 17, 2007, 03:24:04 AM
Okay the walkers bug the hell out of me!
Most of those designs have some serious problems!

#1 A bipedal walker would have some serious problems with balance.
#2 Most of the walkers shown here have to fragile of legs to support them even on a low gravity planet. Also even if the legs could support the some how most damage dealt to the legs would ultimately be stacked with the weight of the load there carrying.
#3 A for legged design would have fewer problems. However you would still have the problem with damage on even one leg ruling the vehicle almost useless.

Any robot with fewer than 5 legs would be immobile after even one leg(exept three legged because you can make a slow moving design that can adapt its movment after a leg has been destroyed)
Also a four legged one may be able to walk on to if it is flexible enough.

However a six legged walker could handle 2-3 legs destroyed before it might become immobile.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Pirogoeth on November 17, 2007, 05:29:54 PM
my personal opinion, no offense to Freeza, is that there has been too much watching of Star Wars: The Empire Strikes back, or that someone has far too much a liking for Plymouths spiders. Multi-ped vehicles would simply be of the arachnid class, no?

its not that I'm against change, but one of the major things that I like about OP2, is that the vehicle classes don't change that much, save for Plymouth's addition of the arachnid class, adn the different weapon turrets. they both have ConVecs, and they both have Cargo trucks and etc. etc. its really easy to go from Eden, to Plymouth, then back to Eden without forgetting what does what when. Having Maesis only have vehicles of the arachnid class would make it terminally difficult for n00bies be bale to remember what the equivalent of a ConVec is, or what the equivalent of a cargo truck is, or whatever. I agree, that there should definitely be more of the arachnid class, potentially some of which available only to Maesis while others to Plymouth, but I dont think that there should be a colony which has ONLY vehicles of the Arachnid class.. especially since their only good thing is that they cannot be EMP'd and can be rapid-spawned for a relatively cheep price.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Freeza-CII on November 17, 2007, 08:51:00 PM
Yes its always assumed that the legs would be so weak.  Walkers today have these problems because we lack the technology to make them better.  Remember these people can build Space ships I am sure they can makes some legs that can take a beating before failure.  I do Agree that Balance is a problem with the legs but adding that aspect of a legged vec would seem to be to much realism.  Because One could have the wheeled vecs blowing a track or a wheel or being flipped.  And you wouldnt add that for them so I dont think that needs to be added for walkers.  

Before you knock the images there just my concepts of my idea not a game model just some thing for some one to work off of if they are interested.

Oh ya i dont really like star wars.  And no there not Arachnid class.  There size is comparable to there counter part units of other colonies.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Mcshay on November 17, 2007, 09:49:08 PM
I normally wouldn't post in a Genesis thread, since I don't want to deal with the debating. However, the military does use walkers today. They just happen to be much smaller than what is proposed in this thread:

Click. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7309264153710857548&q=boston+dynamics&total=124&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

As seen in that video, balance has been solved already; that robot was doing it on its own. But, I'm still missing an answer to the structural issues.
Title: Multiped Vehicles
Post by: Marukasu on November 22, 2007, 10:17:40 AM
Quote
Yes its always assumed that the legs would be so weak. Walkers today have these problems because we lack the technology to make them better. Remember these people can build Space ships I am sure they can makes some legs that can take a beating before failure.

Regardless of how resistant the legs would be, a treaded vehicle with the same amount and type of armer would be faster and more resistant. And besides if you heavily armor the legs then the bodies armor would suffer(and the legs target would become less valid). The reason why the op vehicles are so resiliant is because they are built with redundant means of travel(meaning that if one part is destroyed its not the end.) Also the walker just doesn't fit with the survival feel were the vehicles have to be cheap, fast and durable.  Walkers aren't bad but they don't work as well as other types do.

Also wheeled vehicles are extremly much so more simple than legged and well legged vehicles take longer. I like spiders but the only reason why they can build the so fast is because they have an entire factory dedicated to building just that one chassis.

Quote
I normally wouldn't post in a Genesis thread, since I don't want to deal with the debating. However, the military does use walkers today. They just happen to be much smaller than what is proposed in this thread

like spiders are in op2? :D